Update to JUPP

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Thanks to coineineaugh's newly updated guide, I thought it would be prudent to give my JUPP a final polish. I'm thinking of adding all the stuff and redoing the recommendations according to the five-six years' worth of playing the game and all the major revelations (such as the extended guide on what Spell Resistance is and isn't good for) that have come to pass since the guide's last update in 2003.

Any other specific areas I should touch?

I'll put more focus on the "create it for yourself" part of the guide instead of pushing for the example parties. Both of them parties suck compared to ones I can create with today's knowledge and some of the advice there kinda makes me cringe with embarrassement.

I'll also make a more conscious effort in denoting that some parts of the guide are cheesier than others. I'd hate to lose readers JUST because of extreme min-maxing or level-squatting - there's lots to read and digest there even if one were to ignore the stinkiest cheesy parts.

 

Reaching level 30 without squatting/muling/etc: how far along in HOF does this happen? How does your party perform when it is only level 20? 25?

With some pretty extreme squatting, a 6 man party can reach L30 before the ice temple, but this might not be a fun way to beat the game: http://www.sorcerers.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27045

- Dynamic exp and how it relates to ECL and party size. I'm pretty sure your "2.6 - The power of four" section is flat-out wrong.

Shades family; all three spells give equal results in HOF. From level 22 on, they are pretty solid fighters. From 27 on, their tank quality approaches that of the decoy, but they are far more disposable, and require only one spell slot, compared to the "walking christmas tree" that the decoy is. http://www.sorcerers.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26785

I made a thread about HOF sorc spells: http://www.sorcerers.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26132

and one about HOF sorc feats: http://www.sorcerers.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26784

 

Really looking forward to it. Your JUPP is always the first guide I refer to when the IWDII bug bites me. You might consider dedicating a section to IWD2 tactics as well

 

I'm very flattered that my guide inspired you to make an upgrade; feel free to copy anything you find noteworthy into your guide.

As for what you could do to improve general knowledge: Since you have probably the most knowledge of spell effects, I'm hoping you'll take it a step further, and make a true evaluation of spells. Perhaps you can make an addendum to your guide, or a separate word/excel file. I've made a personal evaluation of buffing spells, this could help you get started:
Name | Duration | Evaluation (1-10) | Range | Effect
Bless | 10R/lvl | 10 | 25'area | +1AB
Armour of Faith | 1R/lvl+3 | 6 | Self | +1/- bl/pi/sl DR
Remove Fear | 10 minutes | 7 | 30'area | dispel/immunity to fear
Aid | 10R/lvl | 6 | 1person | +1AB, +1ST, +8HP
Bull's Strength | 1 hour/lvl | 9 | 1person | 1d4+1 STR
Chant | 10R | 5 | 30'area | +1AB, +1dmg, +1ST, -to enemies no save, no spellcasting
Draw Upon Holy Might | 10R | 6 | Self | +1STR,DEX,CON/3lvls
Prayer | 1R/lvl | 7 | 60'area | +1AB, +1dmg, +1ST, -to enemies no save
Magic Circle vs. Evil | 10R/lvl | 10 | 10'area | +2deflAC, +2ST, charm immunity, friendly demons
Death Ward | 10R/lvl | 7 | 1person | death magic immunity
Holy Power | 1R/lvl | 7 | Self | +4dmg
Recitation | 1R/lvl | 8 | 60'area | +2AB, +2ST, -to enemies no save
Champion's Strength | 10min/lvl | 7 | 1person | 4+1d4 STR
Chaotic Commands | 10R/lvl | 6 | 1person | immunity to charm/conf./sleep/symbols
Iron Skins | 8 hours | 8 | Self | 10/- bl/pi/sl DR vs. 1 attack/2lvls, 8 max.
Divine Shell | 1R/lvl | 5 | Self | 10/- elemental DR, +2ST, missile immunity
Greater Shield of Lathander | 3R | 5 | 1person | +40SR, 30/- DR
Elemental Barrier | 1R/lvl | 6 | 1person | 15/- elem.DR
Protection from Fire | 3R/lvl | 7 | 1person | 5/- fire DR (7/- on self)
Holy Aura | 1R/lvl | 7 | 20'area(allies) | +4deflAC, +4ST, +25SR, charm immunity, blinds evil attackers 3R (fort. save)
Barkskin | 10min/lvl | 8 | 1person | +3AC, +4@lvl6, +5AC@lvl12
Storm Shell | 10R | 7 | Self | 15/- elem.DR (not acid)
Protection from Lightning | 5R/lvl | 6 | 1person | 6/- electrical DR
Aura of Vitality | 1R/lvl | 7 | 5'area | +4STR, +4DEX, +4CON
Eagle's Splendour | 10R/lvl | 6 | 1person | 1d4+1 CHA
Mage Armour | 1 hour/lvl | 10 | 1person | +4armourAC
Minor Mirror Image | 1R/lvl+3 | 5 | Self | Evade 1 attack
Protection from Petrification | 3R/lvl | 4 | 1person | immunity to petrify
Protection from Evil | 10R/lvl | 4 | 1person | +2deflAC, +2ST, charm immunity, friendly demons
Shield | 5R/lvl | 6 | Self | +7armourAC, immune to magic/force missiles
Mirror Image | 3R/lvl | 10 | Self | Evade 2d4 attacks
Blur | 10R/lvl? | 7 | Self | 20% enemy miss chance
Protection from Arrows | 10min./lvl | 7 | 1person | 10/+1 missileDR, /+1 every 5 lvls up to 10/+5@lvl20
Invisibility (Sphere) | 10min./lvl | 4(7) | 1person or 10'area | invisibility
Luck | 10R | 5 | 1person | +1 luck
Cat's Grace | 1hour/lvl | 10 | 1person | 1d4+1 DEX
Death Armour | 1R/lvl | 3 | Self | up to 1d4+5 magic damage when struck
Ghost Armour | 5R/lvl | 4 | 1person | +5deflAC
(Mass) Haste | 1R/lvl | (10)7 | 1person or 20'area | +1 attack/round, +4AC, double speed
Blink | 1R/lvl | 6 | Self | 50% attack&spell failure to enemy, 20% to self
Nondetection | 1hour/lvl | 4 | 1person | immune to See Invisibility and Invisibility Purge (friendly castings ignore allies), so protects invisibility, blur and mirror images
Fireshield (Red/Blue) | 1R/lvl | 5 | Self | -50% fire/cold dmg (opposite), 1d6+1/lvl fire/cold dmg to melee attackers
Improved Invisibility | 10min/lvl | 6 | 1person | invisible (semi-visible after attacking)
Emotion: Hope | 50R | 9 | 15'area (living only) | +2AB, +2ST, +2dmg
Emotion: Rage | 5R | 3 | 10'area | +2STR, +2CON, +1willST, -1AC
Minor Globe of Invulnerability | 1R/lvl | 5 | Self | immunity to level 1-3 spells
Stoneskin | 10min./lvl | 10 | 1person | 10/+5 sl/pi/bl DR, 1 skin/lvl, 15 max.
Protection from Acid | 10R/lvl | 6 | 1person | 10/- acid DR
Protection from Electricity | 10R/lvl | 6 | 1person | 10/- electrical DR
Antimagic Field | 10R/lvl | 1 | Self | immune to spells, no spellcasting
Tenser's Transformation | 1R/lvl | 5 | Self | +1d6HP/lvl, +4AC, +2d4STR, +2d4DEX, +1AB, +5fortST, no spellcasting
Trollish Fortitude | 20R | 6 | Self | +5HP/round up to maximum
Globe of Invulnerability | 1R/lvl | 6 | Self | immunity to lvl 1-4 spells
Mordenkainen's Sword | 1R/lvl | 8 | Self | +4+lvl to AB, 4d6+3 weapon, +3 enchanted, ranged
Vipergout | 1R/lvl | 3 | Self | 1 viper/round, each lasts 3 rounds, no spellcasting
Mass Invisibility | 10min/lvl | 6 | 30'area | invisible (semi-visible after attacking)
even Eyes | 20R | 7 | Self | blocks 1 mental attack OR Charm Person, blocks 1 attack OR magic missile, blocks 1 element OR 4d8 lightning bolt, blocks 1 poisoning OR poison for 30dmg in 30sec., blocks 1 death spell OR Ray of Enfeeblement -10STR, blocks 1 stun/deaf/blind/silence OR Shout, blocks 1 petrify OR Hold Person
Mind Blank | 24 hours | 8 | 1person | complete mental immunity
Iron Body | 10R/lvl | 2 | Self | 50/+3 DR, -50%dmg from fire&acid, -100%dmg from electricity, immune to spells affecting life functions, +6STR, -6DEX, half movement, 80% spell failure
Aegis | 10R | 5 | Self | 15/- elem.DR, +5deflAC, +3SR, +2ST, Stoneskin(?), Minor Globe of Invulnerability, Freedom of Movement
Black Blade of Disaster | 1R/lvl | 5 | Self | +10AB, +5 enchanted, 2d12dmg, Disintegrate on hit (fort. save at +4)
Executioner's Eyes | 10R | 8 | 15'area | +4AB, +4 critical range

This info on buff spells, combined with your knowlegde of offensive spell effects, would make a pretty exhaustive evaluation of spells, don't you think? There's still some work needed to be done though, like you could try to cast spells on enemies instead of your own decoy. It could do with some more details too, like that casting Slow won't dispel your own Haste, because it's party-friendly.
Naturally you should evaluate the spells for yourself, because I'm not playing a vanilla game. I look forward to seeing your update!

 

I actually had this wrong in my guide - you'll only reach level 26 or so in HOF mode in the unmodded game with normal 6-man party. Notice how that's exactly 10 levels above the level you reach in normal mode, while ALL the monsters are considered 10 Challenge Rating higher than their Normal mode counterparts? And no, that's no coincidence. Kill exp dominates quest exp many times over in the long run for a full party, normal mode Prologue excluded. I'll devote a whole chapter to this effect alone.

I have pretty good amount of datapoints for a general calculation of exp at ALL the different points of the game, at varying average party levels. Yes, including the extra spawns that you see with a higher level party. For the record - the extra spawns hardly make a dent to the humongous exp penalties for being too high level, but yes, it's still a (small) positive effect.

Noted. If I can get my Deep Gnome duo to level 25 by the time I reach Kuldahar in NORMAL mode, getting to level 30 by late Chapter 1 or early Chapter 2 HOF is no big surprise. Ten extra CR on the monsters you meet enhances the effect of squatting and muling to totally new heights. That DG duo of mine squatted at a constant average level of nine all the way from the start of chapter 2 to Kuldahar, giving me the invaluable constant-level exp curve I had been missing for the general exp theory. (See above.)

That chapter is actually incomplete, thus the embarrassement from my side. You can only expect to reach average party level eight before it starts to seriously cut into the kill exp awards, and by the time you're avg level twelve, it comes to a screeching halt until the latter half of Chapter five or so - UNLESS you add new members along the way. There's a stupidly long part in the game where the most common enemies are somewhere between CR3 and CR5, thus setting the cut-off point for "no exp per kill" between levels 11 and 13.

I'll also get rid of the notion that having vastly different amount of experience points on your characters (think in the order of 50k, 100k or more) should be seen as a minus when it can just as easily be the exact opposite. Sure, your new recruits might end the normal mode at level 15, maybe even 14, but what does it matter when you have a select few level 19 or even 20 casters to back them up? (Totally non-muled and non-squatted, just adding new members along the way.)

Totally missed that guide of yours, and it just so totally belongs in the spell notes section. Although they are still summons, which people may or may not like using - I prefer my high-AC tank, but yes, even I have to admit that summons play a very important role as disposable tanks. Just having two tank/decoy characters to play with ends up in a Power Word : Reload situation a bit too often to my liking.

So, you guys think I should go the whole nine yards and add commentary on every single spell in the game? I'm not exactly sure what extra value you gain by reading "this spell is kinda meh" on about 200 of them - I'd rather concentrate on the ones that I've found extremely helpful and why.

Thanks JT, that was just what I was hoping for.

 

I'm shocked, shocked!

What about a 4-man HOF party? Level... 27? It doesn't feel like there is enough quest exp to reach 28.

So you're saying the extra spawns hasten you towards the time when you get 0 exp per kill?

No, but you might find some of the commentary (and I was not the only one to post in that thread, by far) useful.

 

Well, that's a rather.. backwards way of seeing it but yes, essentially you're right.

However, the levels just before that point do, in fact, go a bit faster than you'd predict from the experience reduction alone since you have more warm bodies to turn into exp - but your rate of gaining experience points is nowhere near the rate you'd have if you were, say, two average levels lower in that exact same area. You'd lose a killable monster here and there, but you'd get MUCH more experience per kill.

 

You could add how one can get the special random items in your guide like Tymora's Loop or the Massive Greataxe of Flame.
So you can enforce getting them by reloading if you know where the random drops might appear.

 

Tymora's Loop can be found in many different spots but that Greataxe just keeps on eluding me. At least I have a list of weapons that share its drop list but I haven't seen any of those either. Yet.

Seems like you need to get lucky twice in a row to get the axe. First you need to roll the right "type" of ultimate drops and then the right one of them.

 

Since no one seems to be able find it maybe the greataxe was considered too powerful and removed with the patch ?

 

Well I haven't even found Tymora's Loop once. I had to cheat it in just to get a look at it, same with the massive greataxe... Perhaps it's better to disconsider these super-rare random drops for your UPP guide, if only to add a smidgen of practicality into the mix. Player's will want to reproduce your damage output results and such, so they'll be disappointed.
As for your claim of having enough datapoints to make statements about XP gain, I remain skeptical. You'd have to have played the game with numerous party compositions, leveled up the instant a golden plus sign emerged, etcetc.
For example: Do you level up immediately, or wait till you cleared the map (I do this to not miss out on kills)? If you level up immediately, you'll reduce the XP gains from the rest of the map, effectively reducing your gains, which makes it hard to predict in the long run (adds another variable to the equation). If you do the other, you're considered to be 'squatting'.

 

Ditto and ditto. The guide should be based on guaranteed drops.

 

I would really like to see a large section with tons of detailed example builds for all kinds of characters. Those are always fun to read and give good ideas on how to build your own party members.

BTW I once found 2 TL on the same play-through!!! It was quite difficult to choose which party members got the largest boost from them

 

There's at least three known drop locations for Tymora's Loop: Saablic Tan, Tyrannar Brutai Mar and the Monk congregation in the Officer Tower. It's one of the four alternatives in its group - you might also end up getting the Every God's Ring, Winter Ring (7 cold resist) or Ring of Greater Regeneration (1 hp / 3 combat rounds) instead. Conveniently, that's also the only way to see any of those as a random drop.. so if you happen to see any of those rings anywhere else, give me a holler and I'll add it to the possible locations list.

I usually redo the Tyrannar Brutai Mar fight until I get that ring but yes, it's not really that readily available unless you cheese it like I do.

I guess I could present those "ultimate" things in three steps:
1) The absolutely guaranteed, nothing taken for granted mimimum
2) Some sort of realistic "you should be able to get somewhere here" level
3) Luck of the gods themselves version with ALL the bells and whistles for shits and giggles

I have, believe me.

For a given area, that's pretty straightforward, actually. The level you're at upon entering the area decides how many and which type(s) of monsters to spawn there, and that doesn't change whether you level up or not. So you'd get an X amount of experience by staying at that level, but if you do level up, you'd only get the exp for being one level higher from that point onwards - WITHOUT the extra benefit of getting the extra spawns you would have gotten if you entered the area at that level.

 

I had been getting a 2nd Every God Ring so often, I had assumed it was a definite drop. In my newest run with Tactics, I got 2 Greater Regeneration Rings, but earlier than those drop points. I believe I got lucky, since they seemed to replace the normal Regeneration Rings I got in older games. I'd forgotten about the Winter Ring, and I'm pretty sure I didn't get rings at all those points you mentioned. Are other items possible instead, like Cold Fire bastard sword? Even reliable drops aren't super reliable, I think. I first noticed it when I failed to get the Robe of Rags off of Phaen in Targos - replayed it many times, but the greater map of Targos was already loaded, and I had no earlier save game.
The monk congregation seems the easiest map to replay until you get the right drop... I'm not opposed to that sort of thing, not atall. I recently discovered that Lord Pyros can gift you a +1 Returning Flame Bullet for gifting him an antidote, what an awesome device! I replayed the 2nd gifting endlessly until I finally got that rare drop a 2nd time.

 

From the several replays of the Tyrannar Brutai Mar, I can confirm that you really need to get lucky twice in a row to get the Tymora's Loop. First, the game has to decide what TYPE of loot to drop - a weapon, a ring or something else? THEN, if it has decided that you should get a ring, you need to keep your fingers crossed for the TL.

I guess the only truly SET thing in that room is that you'll always get one +5 ranged weapon. Composite Longbow +5 is a smidgeon better than the Golden Arc, and doesn't have those stupid class restrictions like GA does (Warriors only, paladins excluded). Getting that AND the Tymora's Loop in one go would be stupendously lucky.. but yes, you COULD theoretically force that combo if you really, really, REALLY wanted to.

As soon as anyone spots ANY one of the following weapons:
[00AX1H86.ITM] Battleaxe of Disruption +5
[00CLUB90.ITM] Club of Dazing +5
[00MACE93.ITM] Mace of Evil Protection (What the.. ?)
[00HAMM95.ITM] Hammer of Dispelling +5
[00HALB97.ITM] Halberd of Speed +5
[00STAF90.ITM] Staff of Greater Spell Resistance +5 (other than Kratuuk's)
[00SWDB94.ITM] Miasmic Bastard Sword
[00SWDB95.ITM] Bastard Sword of Wrath
[00SWDL91.ITM] Stunning Longsword of Corrosion +3
[00SWDS95.ITM] Brilliant Short Sword +5 (other than that from Battle Squares)
[00SWDT96.ITM] Greatsword of Virtue

...they'll also know that they COULD have gotten the elusive Massive Greataxe of Flame +5 (00ax2h94) but got some other crap due to bad luck. They all share the same RMEW_09 random drop grouping.

 

First sneak peek

Here's one of the new chapters in JUPP for a sneak preview. Thought it would be prudent here since this issue has been discussed in this very thread.

==clip==

Dynamic Experience calculation:
-------------------------------

The previous chapter outlined some boundaries on experience gain when using
a standard 6-man party, but what actually happens if you were to level-squat,
use mules and/or play at least parts of the game with less than six
characters? Let's take a closer look.

The dynamic exp calculation sets a throttle on your exp gain so that no
matter what your level is, you'll always slowly gravitate towards the level
you SHOULD be at during the various parts of the game. You could visualize
this by imagining your party being a cart that gets drawn along a long uphill
road (each one of the milestones corresponding to a gained level) by a
really, really long rubber band of experience. When you start level-
squatting, you pin down this rubber band right in front of the cart,
effectively stopping the cart alltogether. However, the rubber band starts
stretching and gains tension, all the way until you finally release it, ie.
when you finally take those stored levels. The momentum of this yank is
strong enough to take your cart to a higher level than it would have been if
you had just waited it out. However, once the momentum dies, you'll only have
this long rubber band with no or very little tension remaining in it to keep
on pulling your cart further. After a while, your snail's pace will only get
you to a level that you would have gotten anyway, had you just waited it out.

Using mules corresponds to having someone else besides your party stand
beside the road, use a grappling hook attached to their own, weaker rubber
band on your cart and just stand there, trying to pull your cart backwards.
Of course the main rubber band is stronger, so your cart keeps on moving
forwards, but the tension from the extras standing beside the road keeps on
building up. When you release the extras, ie. kicking the mules out of your
party, this extra tension shoves your cart up the hill much in the way it
would with level-squatting and you'll end up with a low-tension rubber band
trying to pull your cart forwards again at snail's pace. In the end, you'd
still not gain anything except for having been at a higher level than you
should be for a while.

Altering the size of the party is akin to changing the weight of the cart.
The rubber band can draw this new, lighter cart up a few notches higher than
the heavier one. Soon enough the tension has dropped enough to reach a new
equilibrium, meaning your cart will still move at the same pace, just a few
notches higher than it would with full load. In other words, a smaller party
will stay a constant - but small - amount of levels ahead the 6-man party
through the whole game.

Quest experience isn't affected by the dynamic calculation, but the dynamic
calculation *is* affected by quest experience. In other words, any quest exp
is the equal of shoving the cart forward with a certain amount of force. A
lighter cart will move further, while a heavier cart is just nudged forward.
It'll drop the tension of the rubber band, but not really enough to kill the
advancement speed unless the cart is really light, ie. solo or perhaps duo.
However, quest exp will still keep the cart rolling even if the tension on
the rubber band has dropped to nil.

That's for the visualization lection. Now, how does this work in the
mathematical meta-game level? To have some sort of a starting point, we need
to know how much experience is gained during the various parts of the game.
I'll then present how to calculate the corresponding exp amount for a party
that is higher or lower level, with or without heavy ECL penalties and so
forth. Here's how it went for one of my recent parties:

Prologue, from very start to just before the final battle:
- 19,404 exp, of which 15,450 quest exp and 3,954 kill exp
- Average party level at or below 3 (doesn't affect kill exp yet)
- Started with one deep gnome and one human, levels 2 and 4 at this point

Prologue final battle, Shaengarne Ford and Horde Warrens up to and including
the completion of Yquog's delivery missions:
- 87,225 exp, of which 24,275 quest exp and 62,950 kill exp
- 106,629 cumulative exp, of which 39,725 quest exp and 66,904 kill exp
- Average party level goes from 3 to 8 during this period, level-ups taken
as soon as they pop up, even mid-battle
- Party has level 9 (almost 10) human and level 8 (freshly dinged) deep gnome

Rest of Horde Warrens, excluding the left pathway between upper warrens
entrance and Kruntur which was cleared in the previous stage, just prior to
entering the Horde Fortress courtyard:
- 28,899 exp, of which 0 quest exp and 28,899 kill exp
- 135,528 cumulative exp, of which 39,725 quest exp and 95,803 kill exp
- Average party level stays at 5 during almost the whole process, as I added
two level 1 characters at the start of this part - it started at 4 but
turned 5 as soon as my human dinged to level 10, after less than 500 exp
- Party consists of a human at level 10, a DG at 8, a Drow at 3 and another
DG at level 2 at this point

Horde Fortress courtyard and the rest of Chapter One:
- 22,875 exp, of which 4,200 quest exp and 18,675 kill exp
- 158,403 cumulative exp, of which 43,925 quest exp and 114,478 kill exp
- Average party level is 5 the first quarter of this part, then 6
- Party consists of a human at level 11, a DG at 9, a Drow at 4 and another
DG at level 3 at this point

The whole Chapter Two, including killing all the civilians after they no
longer serve a purpose and the complete battlesquares:
- 177,214 exp, of which 81,675 quest exp and 95,539 kill exp
- 335,617 cumulative exp, of which 125,600 quest exp and 210,017 kill exp
- Average party level goes from 6 to 10 during this part
- Party consists of a human at level 14, a DG at 12, a Drow at 9 and another
DG at level 8 at this point

The whole Chapter Three, excluding the last of duergar's quest as it can't be
completed yet:
- 84,445 exp, of which 31,800 quest exp and 52,645 kill exp
- 420,062 cumulative exp, of which 157,400 quest exp and 252,662 kill exp
- Average party level goes from 10 to 12 during this part
- Party consists of a human at level 15, a DG at 13, a Drow at 11 and another
DG at level 10 at this point

Chapter Four from start up to and including the completion of Eight Chambers:
- 43,676 exp, of which 32,050 quest exp, 10,000 exp from the How to be an
Adventurer book and only 1,626 kill exp
- 463,738 cumulative exp, of which 189,450 quest exp and 264,288 kill exp
- Average party level stays at 12 almost during the whole time, turns 13 just
at the end of it
- Party consists of a human at level 16, a DG at 15 (with the book bonus),
a Drow at 12 and another DG at level 11 at this point

Rest of Chapter Four, including completion of the duergar's last quest and
killing of all civilians after they've served their purpose:
- 125,552 exp, of which 15,950 quest exp and 109,602 kill exp
- 589,290 cumulative exp, of which 205,400 quest exp and 373,890 kill exp
- Average party level went from 9 to 11 during this period, since I added
yet two more 1st level characters. Level 9 only lasted for a short while,
while level 11 lasted for about the last 30,000 exp worth of it.
- Party consists of a human at level 17, a DG at 16, a Drow at 13, another
DG at 12, another human at 6 and another drow at level 5 at this point

Chapter Five from start up to just prior to entering the Chult Jungle:
- 45,974 exp, of which 14,400 quest exp and 31,574 kill exp
- 635,264 cumulative exp, of which 219,800 quest exp and 405,464 kill exp
- Average party level stays at 11 for most of this part, turning 12 only for
the last 3,000 exp worth or so
- Party levels 17, 16, 14, 13, 8 and 6 at this point (same order as above)

The complete Yuan-Ti Temple area up to just prior to summoning the Guardian:
- 19,255 exp, of which 4,000 quest exp and 15,255 kill exp
- 654,519 cumulative exp, of which 223,800 quest exp and 420,719 kill exp
- Average party level stays at 12 the whole time
- Party levels 18, 16, 14, 13, 8 and 7 at this point

The majority of Chapter Five, from summoning the Guardian up to and including
the Holy Avenger battle, just prior to entering the Time Loop:
- 137,526 exp, of which 22,650 quest exp and 114,876 kill exp
- 792,045 cumulative exp, of which 246,450 quest exp and 535,595 kill exp
- Average level goes from 12 to 14, staying at 13 the VAST majority of time
- Party levels 19, 17, 15, 14, 10 and 9 at this point

Rest of Chapter Five and Chapter Six from start up to just prior to entering
Tyrannar Brutai Mar's chambers:
- 159,654 exp, of which 69,375 quest exp and 90,279 kill exp
- 951,699 cumulative exp, of which 315,825 quest exp and 625,874 kill exp
- Average level goes from 14 to 16, staying at 14 for about half the time,
at 15 another half and turning 16 right at the very end of this period
- Party levels 20, 19, 17, 16, 13 and 11 at this point

Rest of Chapter Six up to just prior the final battle with Isair and Madae:
- 17,820 exp, of which 3,750 quest exp and 14,070 kill exp
- 969,519 cumulative exp, of which 319,575 quest exp and 639,944 kill exp
- Average party level stays at 16 during the whole time
- Party levels 20, 19, 17, 16, 13 and 11 at this point

Phew, that was a handful of data! Let's see.. We have gained just shy of
one million exp total. Comparing that to a party that started with six
persons, which would have in the ballpark of 720k to 816k total exp by now,
means the extra characters added during the journey and/or the ECL penalties
actually INCREASED our exp total by between 153k and 249k - exactly all of it
through greater kill exp, since quest exp remains the same irregardless to
your own levels. Not only that, but the two characters that started as a duo
reached levels 20 and 19, even if the latter of them is a Deep Gnome! Their
high-level spells far exceed the penalty of having the last two characters at
levels 13 and 11.

Notice I listed the party's average levels, not only where they started and
ended, but what amount of time they stayed at each level? (Yes, two of the
parts had too long gaps between the start and end data points, should have
split those up further.) That's because it's the PARTY'S AVERAGE LEVEL that
governs *everything* that has to do with gaining experience. Party's size or
ECL penalties ONLY matter in how many levels you actually end up gaining by
receiving a chunk of exp. A smaller party shoots up in levels fast, but only
until they reach a level that no longer gives meaningfull exp for killing
stuff. On the other hand, characters with heavy ECL penalties can "swallow"
a much bigger chunk of exp before going up all that many levels, thus
ensuring that the party will keep on gaining exp a while longer.

The higher your party's average level is, the more and harder monsters
you'll meet. The really tough monsters such as trolls in the earliest
chapters, golems and Slayer Knights of Xvim aren't altered, neither in their
numbers or their abilities, but you'll see much more and tougher cannon
fodder. Several bosses, such as Illium, Sherincal and Saablic Tan actually
have tougher variants available for the really high level parties. Each area
is populated with the types and amounts of monsters based on your party's
average level at the moment of entering new area. You will NOT see more or
better spawns if you level up during the area, neither will you lose any if
you add new characters, thus taking your average level down. However, the
amount of extra monsters you'll see by being at higher level is NOWHERE near
as big of an effect to your experience as the reduction you'll see per every
kill. The extra monsters will only softly cushion the colossal impact imposed
by your higher level, to put it in perspective. To make matters worse, the
extra tough variants of cannon fodder aren't given their proper Challenge
Rating value boost - you're fighting tougher monsters for exactly the same
amount of exp per kill to show for it.

To make these charts apply to *every* party, not just the specific one
I used, here's what to do.
- Anything between party average levels 1 to 3 is *completely* unaffected by
the dynamic calculation.
- For every N levels you're above (below) the levels my example party was at
during this phase, halve (double) the amount of kill exp. Furthermore, N
depends on the absolute levels according to the following table:

Avg level N per +1 level per -1 level
4-10 4 84% 119%
11-18 3 79% 126%
19+ 2 71% 141%

For example, the part between summoning the Guardian and completing the
Holy Avenger battle was worth 114,876 kill exp at average party level 13.
If you did that part using a level 9 party (a.k.a squatting through all of
it and most likely a few areas prior to it), you'd be four levels below my
party, and thus get the 126% exp bonus twice - from level 13 to 12 and then
again from 12 to 11. Additionally, you'd get 119% exp bonus twice, from
level 11 to 10 and again from 10 to 9 according to the "per -1 level"
column. Combining the multipliers, you'd thus get 224% of the experience
I did, ie. somewhere around 258,264.
- Any time your party's average level changes, you'll need to calculate this
passage in partitions according to the amount of time you spend at each
level. Likewise, the passages in which my party's level changed somewhere
in between need to be divided into similar partitions.
For example, take the "Horde Fortress courtyard and the rest of Chapter
One" part. Let's assume your party was level 7 during the first half of it
and at 8 otherwise. This splits the area into three partitions. The first
quarter you're two levels above me, thus 84% x 84% = 71% experience. The
second quarter you're one level above me, thus 84% experience. The last
half of it you're again two levels above with 71% experience. Thus you
should receive:
1. part = 0.25 x 18,675 x 71% = 3315
2. part = 0.25 x 18,675 x 84% = 3922
3. part = 0.5 x 18,675 x 71% = 6630
Total = 13,867 experience
- Whenever you're eight or more levels above the cannon fodder of this area,
you stop gaining exp from them. Impose an extra 33% experience penalty
on top of the normal penalties for being at higher level.
- Whenever you're eight or more levels above the AVERAGE monster of this
area, you stop gaining exp for most of them. Impose an extra 66% experience
penalty on top of the normal penalties for being at higher level.
- Whenever you're eight or more levels above the toughest monsters of this
area, you completely stop gaining exp for kills.
- There's no limit on how many levels you can be below the monsters, except
for the fact that you can't be below average level 3, obviously.

 

"Will stay a constant - but small - amount of levels ahead" is wrong. Most of the time the average character level will be the same in a party of 4 as in a party of 6, you only reach the point of getting 0 fighting XP a little faster.

Adding the extra characters didn't increase your total experience gained at all. In my first game I didn't level squat and didn't finish all quests either but I still ended with 5 level 17 and 1 level 16 character, a total of 5 levels higher than your party and I got 0 XP for defeating slayer knights so often that I'm sure I'd achieved the same levels with 5 drow and a deep gnome.



PS: More interesting than a strange complicated formula to estimate XP gain would be a list about which level the standard monsters in the different chapters are considered and at which level the party is stuck without gaining combat XP, something like
- Chapter 6 standard enemies Slayer Knights are considered level 8 therefore the party is stuck at level 16.

 

You're mixing things up here. Reaching the point of no exp per kill faster than the full party means the small party must be at least one average level higher than the full party at that point, as otherwise they'd be getting the same amount of exp for kills. If the full party manages to reach that point too, fine, they'll get zero exp from there on too, but the smaller party got there first, and every quest experience point from there on will just increase their lead since there's less characters to deal the quest exp with. Which is - by definition - the same as being a "small amount ahead". Note that I didn't specify that you'd have to be WHOLE levels ahead, maybe just one tenth of a level? Things really start to degenerate to all sorts of madness when you're treading the fine line between "at least some" and "none" exp per kill.

I got more experience POINTS for sure. Not sure which ECL penalties you had in your party, but level 17 for non-ECL characters is at 136,000 exp, extending up to 152,999 exp if they're right at the verge of leveling to 18. Six characters at 152,999 exp is 917,994 exp, still over 50,000 exp less than my party had. No, I didn't level-squat for a millisecond either, as I was gathering the data for just that level-up strategy there.

Also, as I noted in the text, the two lowish-level characters were way more than compensated by having the two first characters a whole three levels higher than your highest members. You DO realize what a huge difference there is between level 17 and 20 for most of the casters, especially for a sorcerer? By your logic, three level 10 guys should equal one guy at level 30, which is just.. wrong.

Well, since I actually have that list, might as well write it down in the JUPP. It's far from exhaustive list, but gives pretty good directions nonetheless.

By my notes, Slayer Knights of Xvim are CR 12 monsters, thus the only way you could have received zero exp from them is by being at level 20 or over. Care to elaborate the circumstances a bit more? For all I know, it wouldn't even surprise me anymore if there actually was two different variants of the Knights, one with CR 12 and the other with no higher than CR8 in order to zero out against a level 16 party as yours was.

 

I'd rather say you're confusing "levels" and "XP". "A constant amount of levels ahead" is definitely misleading, for most readers a character with 999 XP has the same level as a character with 0 XP.

Didn't doubt this. I wrote that's not because of adding characters later, to give an answer to your and/or guess. I'm sure if I'd started with 5 deep gnomes and a drow my party (I don't level squat) had gained more XP total than yours.

My logic doesn't include this. Only wrote about getting 5 more total levels with my party, didn't make a statement regarding power. If 17,17,17,17,17,16 characters are more powerful than 20,19,17,16,13,11 depends on the class selections, but a balanced party is definitely more fun to play than a mixture of powerhorses and useless wimps.

My game was unmodded, I only installed the official 2.01 patch and the official bonus merchants and played at normal difficulty.
My party entered the hand with 1 level 15 and 5 level 16 character and gained quite some XP for defeating those standard cannon fodder Slayer Knights of Xvim until they leveled up and stopped gaining XP for them.
You might have noted the few special monsters which leave the 2-handed swords +5 as slayer knights, the standard knights don't drop such loot.