Update to JUPP

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The first goblins in Targos give 37 exp per kill. That's one half of the smallest exp value in the table. You can check the comments and readme for the modified EXP tables available here at SP, the authors for those noticed the same thing happening.

Also, I used a modified table that has extremely small yet unique exp awards for monsters waaaaay below your level. None of the entries would match with the exp awards I was seeing unless there was a division by two somewhere along the way.

The question WHY it is this way is still unknown, although I'd imagine play balance has to be a major part of it. Un-nerfed table (a.k.a what it "should" give, i.e. doubled exp values) leads to zero exp kills very soon and never really picks up from there.

 

Oh I see. Then it all fits, then. Thanks for clearing that up.

The opposition sure can vary, depending on your party's level, doesn't it? I started a game in Normal mode, sent a group of 6 characters, average level of 6, "squatting" them at 6 all the way through the Fields of Slaughter. Saablic Tan didn't have any Slayer Knights of Xvim with him in the last area of the Fields.

I then reloaded a savegame with that exact same party just before entering the Fields, then sent that party through the Fields again, but took the step of levelling them all up at once (= average level of 28 per character, and yes, this was still in Normal mode) before fighting Saablic Tan, and aside from Saablic Tan suddenly having two Slayer Knights of Xvim with him (instead of none for that same party at level 6). Unfortunately, the chance of getting a good +5 weapon from there didn't seem to change, regardless of whether I used the level 6 party or the level 28 party.

Interestingly, it is possible to exceed 400,000 XP per person in a 6-member party in normal mode before Chapter 6 (those 6 characters, squatted at an average level of 6, in Normal mode, had 417,000 XP each after beating Saablic Tan's group. Enough to go past level 29.), without using unlimited monster respawns: from resting, wandering through the Fell Wood or repeatedly triggering that Yuan-Ti spawning trap on Level 2 of Dragon's Eye.

But that's if you "squat" the party at level 6 all the way through, and do extremely dangerous things like, oh, fighting Lord Pyros. Who, by the way, is a CR17 opponent. And, being almost immune to magic, is far tougher than the other CR17 foes: Thorasskus or Saablic Tan. Can add that to the CR monster list in the JUPP I suppose.

 

Sorry for thread resurrection, but this little comment kept on bugging me as I had a hunch that it's false but had no hard facts to prove it so. Until now.

Since I'm doing an all-Deep Gnome party right now for the absolute max ECL penalty run-through (not that it's advisable - just checking for the extremes, is all), I can safely conclude that the statement above is false.

My 6xDG party is at the door to the Time Loop. Comparing the exp values with the ones listed in the JUPP dynamic exp calculation example (the one where you add members as you go) at that same exact spot, the 6xDG party is already behind in total exp value so far. Since the JUPP example party doesn't have as high average ECL, it must therefore follow that doing the add-as-you-go stunt gives you an experience boost beyond what you'd get based on party's average ECL value alone.

After concluding a few more case studies on what exactly happens when you add fresh newbies as compared to a straight 6-man party from the start, I learned that you effectively keep the average level down much in the same way as you do when level-squatting. Of course the average doesn't stay below where you started for long as the new guy(s) quickly jumps up in levels, but at the same time your old characters get a corresponding exp boost "for free". The effect becomes even more noticeable if you manage to incite extra spawns into an area with the original high-level party BUT kill everything with a fresh newbie dragging the average level down. That's like eating your cake and still having it.

 

That makes sense, since the dynamic levelling system converges on a particular party LEVEL, not experience total. A six-man party of average level 10 will have 270,000 XP total if they're all exactly level 10, but if one is level 30, one is 28, and the rest are level 1 they will have 813,000 XP. Anything you can do which increases the level spread necessarily also increases the total XP in the party.

-Max

 

You don't have hard facts yet. To get them you have to finish the game first. Don't be surprised if the deep gnome party has more total XP at the end.

 

More data from the latest playthrough

Here's the data from the latest playthrough with a party of six Deep Gnomes.

At the end of Chapter One: ~31,100 exp per character, 157,217 total after starting exp has been removed. JUPP example party (in the dynamic exp calculation example) has 158,403 total here (1186 more).

At the end of Chapter Two: ~67,500 exp per character, 376,403 cumulative above starting exp. JUPP example: 335,617 here (40,786 less).

At the end of Chapter Three: ~84,000 exp per character, 474,467 cumulative above starting exp. JUPP example: 420,062 here (54,405 less).

At the end of Chapter Four: ~106,000 exp per character, 616,617 cumulative above starting exp, including the Book from the monastery. JUPP example: 589,290 here (27,327 less).

At the entrance to the Time Loop in Chapter Five: ~137,000 exp per character, 801,980 cumulative above starting exp. JUPP example: 792,045 here (9,935 less).

Just prior to the final battle in Chapter Six: ~168,000 exp per character, 986,781 cumulative above starting exp. JUPP example: 969,519 here (17,262 less).

The final battle gave yet another ~2,000 per character, but they didn't quite make it to level 16 (at 171,000 each) except for the guy that had read the exp book. Therefore I had levels 15, 15, 15, 15, 15 and 16 at the end.

The difference between the first and the last character in the marching order wasn't measured this time as I had three different guys in the #1 position for a significant time. All of them had just shy of 1,000 exp more than the remaining three, so expect to see a difference of about 3,000 exp during the normal mode between the #1 and the #6 slot in the marching order. Slots in between fall about linearly in between these two extremes, assuming close to uniform exp remainder after division between party members.

Although the all-DG party DID, in fact, score just a bit more total exp compared to the JUPP example party, there are several factors to consider:
- We're comparing a straight +3.0 average ECL party to a one that only had only +1.83 average ECL (Two DG, two drow, an Aasimar and a plain human).
- The DG party did manage to cash in more kills by being more aggressive. For example, Lord Pyros in the Time Loop was killed TWICE (during two different days) for 6,300 exp each time, and most of the other neutral mobs there were killed every day, while the JUPP example party did none of this.
- Each time new party members were added to the JUPP example party, the cumulative exp difference took a MAJOR hit. See especially at chapters one and four. Therefore there must have been significant portions of the playthroughs where the JUPP example party was scoring more exp, eventhough it has much lower ECL total. Just as I theorycrafted earlier in this thread.

General notes about the party itself:
- Casters in general and spellsword tanks in particular are greatly hamstrung by the uniform exp spread, ie. when starting with a party of six from the word go. They just "feel" awkwardly behind in power for a vast majority of the normal mode, finally catching up somewhere around chapter five or so. Conversely, pure melee units (I tested a Monk and a Barbarian) lose their steam around the same time.
- A druid with low STR score isn't good for much of anything during the early chapters, unless spending feats on (cross)bows and Rapid Shot. Single-target spells or lousy damage due to STR penalties, take your pick, until you get Flame Strike.
- More than two guys in melee isn't a good idea generally as you'll just end up in traffic jams. Even then, it's a good thing if at least one of them can use two-handed weapons for extra reach. Rest of the characters should concentrate on ranged weaponry and/or spells.
- Out of the sturdy, beefy physical combatans in my party, the guy in the back ranks with a lousy SLING combined with Rapid Shot had most kills in the party. Reach + melee-quality dps = win.

All in all, it was refreshing change to play something that quite obviously wasn't optimized for much of anything. Goes to show that maybe, just MAYBE, it isn't always about powergaming.

 

I generally don't have any problems with traffic jams except in some narrow spots. I find that in most caes, there is enough room to maneuver. My first run through had 3 melee and 3 ranged attackers. I'm currently in chapter 3 of my 2nd run through with 4 melee (one with reach) and only 2 ranged attackers. I personally like having melee characters to spread out the damage taken from enemies. Also, having more melee characters reduce the likelihood that a ranged character will be engaged in melee. I can bring one of my melee guys around to intercept an enemy in melee against a ranged character.

You do have more difficulty concenrating fire on a single target. I generally do not find this an issue. My melee guys generally hit hard enough and I can have my ranged characters concentrate on an enemy if I need to bring him down faster.

I find that the characters with the most attacks had the most kills. Early, it was my Ranger/Monk because of the two-weapon fighting followed by my archer with rapid shot. Others (except my wizard with the crossbow) has caught up. Right now my fighter/barbarian is in the lead because he was the one I used for the battlesquares.

 

One thing that I've found is that the narrower the terrain becomes, the more successful I can be with stealthy tactics with 1 or 2 characters. And that being the case, it's very rare that my parties find themselves in really narrow melee situations. In fact, in the few times that I do recall narrow melee situations, I've generally found them to be to my party's advantage since it would limit the party's exposure to being outnumbered, even if getting attacked from the front and rear.

And at the times when I can use stealthy tactics, I can often set things up so that the party's stealthy warriors open a battle with the first attacks, while the remainder of the party either instantly runs out of their narrow terrain into the open to join the battle ... or they remain hidden, and the stealthy warrior(s) run back to them so that the battle can be fought in tight terrain to prevent the enemy from hitting the party on a wide front. (It mostly depends on the ability of my stealthy warriors to carry the battle to the enemy.)

I tend to like having ranged combatants also be moderately competent in melee, just in case, since there are some times when the party will get hit from the rear. Indeed, sometimes in severely constricted terrain where rear attacks seem likely, I'll move one of my primary melee tanks into the #6 position.

 

Another benefit to relying mostly on ranged attacks is that is minimizes the visual clutter of battle. When you have a bunch of melee guys, whether because they're party members or summons or enemies that you've Dominated, in some areas it can get difficult to see what's going on, to make sure important enemies get taken down swiftly and keep the lag down. I deal with this partly by ignoring everything except the one enemy all the PCs are focused on killing, and my decoy or tank.

I can only imagine how much more difficult this would be if I actually CARED about the health of my melee meat shields, i.e. if they were PCs.

-Max

 

Besides tyrantar, where else can it potentially drop? The thought of continuous critical attacks on a berserker....

 

Sorry for thread resurrection, I thought I'd answer since this is interesting to me too:

1. Saablic Tan (apparently).
2. Tyrannar Brutai Mai (definitely).
3. Yquoq (definitely, dont kill him in the goblin warrens)
4. The half dragon that you fight when you fight Captain Pudu (found one on the first try!)
5. The monks (apparently).

I dont know where else, I would guess it should be possible to find one after the Aerie fight but I'm not sure. I found two in my latest playthrough, one from Yquoq and one from the half dragon mentioned above. I did find one odd bug though. The treasure found after teh tyrannar brutai mai fight was always exactly the same, it didnt reroll. My global variables listed me as having visited the area, but obviously I didnt.

 

So, with a "bit" of good old-fashioned Power Word: Reload trickery, you could, theoretically, have an almost full party equipped with these rings. Not that you SHOULD do it, it'd be hilariously OP, but still.

 

Yup, its possible. I did some Power Word: Reloading to get my first one (on this playthrough) from Yquoq. But the second was pure luck. Quite amazing actually.

Here's a question for the JUPP to answer - is it better to distribute your luck boosting items, or concentrate them on one character to maximize damage?

 

That's a simple maths question.

You'd want to spread the love (ie. the luck items) around your characters evenly, IF they have similar damage output. That's because every point of Luck after the previous one has one less possible die roll where the extra luck still has an effect instead of trying to max something that was already maxed.

In practice, though, you'll almost invariably have someone that gets much greater benefits out of the items. Any x3 critical weapon benefits more than x2 and any STR 30+ Berserker more than the STR 16 Deep Gnome tank. Also, since the Flying Death axe is only a +1 weapon, hitting stuff with it is certainly much less certain than, say, a Sling +5 with +5 bullets. Having decent Luck greatly magnifies that weapon's damage output.

 

Spoiler? Myth-breaking? Or just information?

Evenin' all - it has been around 4 years since my last post. I thought I would add to the mystery (or rather explosion of it) to the 2 main items that have been discussed in this topic.
Because this is a bit of a spoiler, I haven't stated where each character can be found.

First of all, I'd like to state that this wasn't the most exciting few hours spent in my life - rummaging around the rules/character files is repetitive and boring. There are a few assumptions, simply due to my lack of knowledge of/laziness to find out IWD2's inner workings:

1. I've only looked at a character's inventory - there are occasions where the item is found in the quick slot - I don't know how that differs in terms of random drops;
2. I couldn't be bothered searching the area maps for random treasure - only characters;
3. Some characters could carry the item, but they don't appear on the map. They could be spawned creatures - I couldn't be bothered looking into this either;
4. It looks, on the surface, as though a dice roll is made (or rather the c command rand() is probably used ) for random drops, which is mapped in the RT_NORMAL.2DA or RT_FURY.2DA files. One "item" is picked from this dice roll. Some of the items have a "pool", i.e. there is a 2nd list of items to choose from - in which case another dice roll is made. Consequently, you could play the game hundreds of times without ever seeing these items;
5. Stated on a previous post, Tymora's Loop has been found on Tyrannar Brutai Mar - but the character inventory specifies no such item could possibly be dropped (see 3, above)! Therefore the following information is only a guide to the.

Tymora's Loop - in the pool RRNG_05

I've been lucky enough to get this once, against Saablic Tan, so Proteus_za, you could changed a previous post from (apparently) to (possible). The following characters have the potential to drop this:

Ashra
Inhatria
Jeszraela
Ojaihaa
Pureblood Sorcerera (Chult & Yuan-Ti Temple)
Sashkta (Chult)
High Sorceress Izbelah (Dragon's Eye Entrance)
Gorg
Kratuuk
M'darfein
Saablic Tan (Fields of slaughter 2)
Wanmok
Buvai de'Naly
Zigma
Ruinlord Garuk Katah
Yquog (Severed Hand)
2 of the 5 Xvimian Monks (Severed Hand - Office Tower 2nd floor)
Stubnok
Vyxein
Demon Knights (Severed Hand - Office, War and Mage Towers)
Nalakora
Ormis Dohor

Masssive Greataxe of Flame - in the pool RMEW_05 (normal) RMEW_09 (HoF)

Looking at the RT_NORMAL.2DA and RT_FURY.2DA files, it seems that you cannot get this item in HoF mode - but as already intimated, I'm only basing this post on the available rules files and not the inner workings of the main exe.

It has already been established that there are 3 other rings other than Tymora's Loop that you could recieve. There are 16 other weapons you could recieve, rather than this axe!

The following characters have the (unlikely) potential to drop this:

Kratuuk
M'darfein
Saablic Tan (Fields of slaughter 2)
Wanmok
Buvai de'Naly (Severed Hand - top floor, War Tower 3rd floor)
Dracein
Glabrezu Guard (Severed Hand - 4th floor)
Yxbudur'zmutkimdu
Ruinlord Garuk Katah
Yquog (Severed Hand)
2 of the 5 Xvimian Monks (Severed Hand - Office Tower 2nd floor)
Morvyn
Captain Pudu
Vyxein
Red Half-Dragon (Severed Hand - War Tower 4th floor)
Nalakora
Ormis Dohor
Red Half-Dragon (Severed Hand - War Tower 4th floor)

---

You may notice that some characters could carry either item. This is because the 1st list of random drops will contain both "pools". A special note must be made about Wanmok, because this character has 4 items that could be either a Tymora's Loop or the Massive Greataxe of Flame +5. If anyone wants to do extensive testing, it looks as though this is the one to test it on.

i haven't looked for the locations of the other items that have been mentioned early in this thread - my brain is a little frazzled. If I can be bothered, I'll submit another lengthy post.

Happy hunting!

 

The list you gave contains pretty much every major, named boss monster of some sort in the last two chapters, so that's no real surprise. But an excellent list nonetheless.

However, considering the 1874672 bajillion playthroughs made by the members of this board and a grand total of zero reported Massive Greataxe drops (apart from the ones.. acquired.. via the console), it usually suffices to say "Good Luck finding one".

Anyway, a couple of much more easily Power Word: Reloaded Tymora's Loops will make much larger difference to your party's damage rate than upgrading one classic top-end weapon with the Massive Greataxe, so no need to lose sleep because of this.

 

Excerpted from your guide:

5.1 - Tank & thief & buffer & bombardier

Deep Gnome Rogue(2)/
Paladin(1)/
Illusionist(x)

Note that some of the spells belong to Abjuration or Necromancy schools,
and thus are unavailable to this character until the level as Paladin has
been taken.



Not sure if I missed something somewhere, but the character is current level 2rogue level 1 paladin and level 1 illusionist and I am unable to learn Shield or any other abjuration spells. I have the current official patch installed and no other mods.

 

Are you REALLY sure you can't learn them? The gray shading on the 'forbidden' items remains, leading to the (false) conclusion that you can't use them. However, if you try, you'll be able to.

Other than that - it has always worked like that for me and several others, and if it doesn't for you.. Guess you're out of luck.

 

excuse me for my ignorance but what is JUPP?

 

Jukka's Ultimate Powergaming Party(JUPP), I believe is the exact meaning. It's available for download here, on SP.