2 questions about bards

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I have a bard in my party and I was wondering about two things:
1. Does Lingering song allow for singing two songs at once? Say you start with the Tymora song, stop, have it go into "using feat: lingering song", start singing war chant and then alternate the songs each round. Will you get both effects?

2. Does the luck effect from the bard song stack with luck bonuses from items?

 

1. Yes, even 3 songs at once since it lasts for 3 rounds.

2. Yes, it does.

 

Actually, you can sing ALL the songs at once with Lingering Song!

If you pause the interface, and select/de-select each available song in turn, your characters will all benefit from the song effects (it even shows multiple harp icons in the character portraits). Then your bard can go ahead and begin casting spells or attacking without "wasting" a round. Who's under-optimized now?

I would consider this...stretching the rules. Not to say I haven't used it from time to time, though.

 

Really? It usually takes about a second after unpausing before the music icon shows up, so I figured it would be then that the effect took hold. Or do you use the "autopause: end of round" to time it just right?

 

That's due to the Lingering Song feat: if you deactivate the song even before its effects regularly start, a 2-round song kicks in to replace it. You can seriously abuse this by singing every song, or multiples of the same song. Do it while paused and the stacking is potentially limitless. For two rounds. So I hope you enjoy clicking.

 

Yep, and in addition, multiple bards can sing songs simultaneously. No, not only could you have a single bard singing an infinite number of songs, you could have an infinite chorus of up to six bards!

Seriously, though, there are really only three bard songs that are consistently useful: the first, third, and seventh. The others have effects that are duplicated elsewhere (paladin resistance to fear, etc.) or are just plain unreliable (the Siren's song - the DC on that seems to be quite low).

Generally, it's agreed that 11 bard levels is enough. The higher level spell selections aren't that great (although if someone thinks otherwise, I'd love to hear it). Sorcs and pallys are good mix-ins, although mixing with paladin requires "no alignment restrictions" from the Ease of Use mod.

 

High level Shades spell? (summoned monster scales with level)
Higher level Shadow Conjuration? (same)
Mass Haste? Wail of the Banshee?
Not to mention two Viols of Hollow Men (casts shades, bard only, useful 'coz it casts instantly for instant encounters)

Facts about bards:
Same BAB as clerics
Good buffing spells
Good summoning spells
Bard Songs
Use Magic Device

Facts about the game:
Has good Axes/Greataxes, some of which are ranged

Add the two, times two: Two greataxe wielding, ranged drow bards with good BAB and good damage with good buffs, the ability to continually summon some very powerful allies, and able to keep up double Ballad of Three Heroes, Tymora's Melodies and Warchants of Sith
Add a swirfneblin Priest of Oghma (for identify and misc) and a elf Rogue/Diviner

Result: Party were all members can cast Wail of the Banshee, where all members can summon something powerful to keep up a wall of summons for a long time, where diplomacy, thieving, etc. are all covered, where everybody gains levels well (synchs perfectly - the Wizard levels first for fireball and the rest reach their levels at just the right time), where low levels are also covered (a tanker swirf and a fast-leveling wizard), where people have enough buffs and songs that each party member and all those summons are basically all killing machines (the wizard stays at the back, of course), where anyone can use healing and resurrect spells/scrolls, where everyone can render himself immune to attacks using Mirror Image while their summons tank, where all the fighters have SR so that with proper buffs the Wizard can nuke at will, where everyone can go invisible if need be, where everyone can cast blur,etc etc etc.
My UPP.

Unfortunately people do not condone the use of "overpowered summons" and yet condone the use of a cleric with 70 something AC and even a "decoy" character so... yeah. Party not for everyone. Micromanagement level is also somewhat higher than most UPP's.

At the heart of the party's effectiveness are the double bard songs - very important (everyone, even the summons, starts to crit more often, save against spells more often, do more damage, withstand more damage, withstand fear), the high level spells (wall of summon+quadruple wail of the banshee to prevent being overwhelmed), the perfect synergy between the 4 classes (two go invisible and summon monsters, the other two cast mirror image before going invisible so aggro goes to them first before shifting to the newly summoned monsters, then they break their invisibility and summon their monsters while everyone starts to cast each of his/her aoe buffs. Summoning/buffing is done in a few seconds with no hassle) and the combined buffs of the four classes. A human druid (5th slot) is optional. Only party downside: no one to use cera sumat. So yeah. Look, drool, no touchie.

 

It's not the overpoweredness of the summons that personally bugs me, it's the hassle of having them around, blocking the passage for my characters and having to cast them in the first place when they're clearly superfluous after a dose of 1-2 high AC tanks.

 

And vice versa.

Yeah, they take more micromanagement. Still, I prefer to just order monsters around rather than taking active risks I guess. Party would probably make excellent bad guys in some other campaign.

 

I'm trying to think in terms of practicality here:

One bard singing one song is the best (cheat free) addition to a party, you get a free hand in the back, who can support the melee team better than 2 bards could. Having 2 bards just detracts from the melee power of the team (again, bug-abuse-free) - you're not starting an orchestra! I wouldn't advise a bard for a party of less than 5 members either. Playing fair with the bard is also more practical, it saves you tons of clicking to reactivate song stacks every two rounds. I find the 'autopause: Spell Cast' option extremely user friendly, but this doesn't pause the game when a song expires, or when items are used. That's why the spell books and innate abilities are way better.

My first attempt at a full bard had maxed STR at start, at the expense of other stats. But I discovered that a bard adds nothing to combat, so I recreated it to maximize my more relevant stats. Since the bard must keep singing, he can't really engage in melee. An occasional spell is practical though, since autopause kicks in, and you can reactivate the song before the Lingering Song effect expires.
In fact, bards should be kept from melee, functioning only as a decoy (and a good one at that, since running around doesn't distract him from his primary function - singing). Clerics are the best melee characters; their buffs are unmatched. Even my mages fight in melee regularly; they have decent strength, and their buffs are real handy in melee. But bards? Keep their strength low, and design them for singing/spellcasting only. Melee and singing don't mix, not practically anyway.
Here's my versatile party summarized:
Dreadmaster: Tanking, buffs and healing. Occasional enchantment.
Morninglord: Tanking, buffs and healing. Occasional fire evocation.
Druid: Tanking, spellcasting.
Illusionist: Ranged, spellcasting, occasional melee (either buffed, or just for cleaning up).
Sorcerer: Ranged, spellcasting, often joins melee (has good STR and buffs)
Bard: Singing, decoy, spellcasting (& items). NEVER EVER MELEE: bards offer nothing to a melee situation.

p.s.: these character's mix-in classes offer vital bonuses to their abilities, without them they'd be just a mediocre team...

 

Moved to other thread.