Black Raven Monastery Question

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Sir Rechet
Well it all boils down to one thing. Youre saying killing everything in a linear fashion provides the best possible benefit. I would like to see proof for that.

 

I happen to enjoy killing everything I see, I mean, I don't think I would play this game if it wern't for the monsters. XP or not, I kill things.

 

I'm speechless. You want me to prove that.. killing more.. leads to more exp?

Okay, I'll bite.

Assume two identical parties A & B. They play the game exactly in the same way, get exactly the same amount of random monsters when resting, all the works. All the way through the whole game, except for the Monastery part.

Party A decides that they want to play goody two-shoes and don't kill anyone there, forfeiting the Duergar's quest in the process. Party B, however, caves into their powergaming desires and gets on with the slaughter. AFTER they've squeezed the monks dry of any available quest exp first, of course, just like party A. Thus both parties have exactly same amount of exp to start with, let's call it N. However, party B acquires an extra exp boost of M during the slaughter and from completing the duergar's quest.

Score thus far: Party A = N exp, party B = N+M exp.

Let's iterate what happens then, shall we?

Step 1. Party B does NOT gain a new level from the extra exp. (Advance to step 2 if they do.) Thus both parties continue to get the same amount of exp afterwards, all the way until they reach the next level breakpoint. However, B will reach this new level M exp points sooner. Let S1 denote the amount of exp needed to reach the point when party B gains its new level.

Step 2. Party B gets a level-up, thus getting only a fraction of the exp, call it D (for decay), where 0 <= D <= 1, for kills compared to party A from there on. However, after an amount of exp between zero and M for party A (depending on how near A was to the level-up themselves), they'll also gain a level and thus end up at the same rate of advancement as party B. Let's call this amount S2. Thus follows that S2 <= M. During this time, party B will have gained S2 x D exp.

Score thus far: Party A = N + S1 + S2, Party B = N + M + S1 + (S2 x D). B leads by M + (D-1)xS2 exp. Given the constraints above, this is a positive value for all valid values of D and S2. (Technically it becomes zero if both S2=M and D=0, but that's a special case of its own - all kill exp advancement has stopped altogether for both parties at that point.) Let's call this lead for L for simplicity. Thus 0 <= L <= M.

Step 3. Some time passes and party B gets to the verge of gaining yet another level. Since they're ahead of A, they'll get there first. Both parties gain S3 exp while getting to that point, since they're at the exact same level the whole time.

Step 4. Party B levels up, once again getting only a D fraction of A's kill exp until A also gains a level after gaining additional L exp. B gets D times as much, ie. L x D exp during this time.

Score thus far: Party B leads by L x D exp.

I guess you can figure out where this leads - the exp advantage diminishes by a factor of D after every gained level. However, it never zeroes out (integer arithmetics flooring values notwithstanding) nor goes negative. Ergo, party B is always ahead in the exp curve compared to party A.

QED.

 

You're neglecting discretization of XP. In a case where you get a huge lump of XP from a single monster (Thorasskus or Lord Pyros), the assumption that S2 <= M may not hold because you can't level-up in the middle of killing him. Thus steps #3 and #4 do not hold for the general case.

Maybe if you add a constraint that says "assume you never encounter a monster that gives party A greater than X XP s.t. X*(1-D) > M for the current D." Then you show that the iron golems still fit that constraint.

-Max

 

Right... Well this is the point where you are mistaken. CR does not raise continuously, thus preventing higher level party from getting exp entirely from certain mobs once it levelups.(Like in Ice Temple frequently i believe) That is, if D=0 all of the above becomes 0. Take an infinite number of equal CR monsters and both parties end up with same amount of exp. That and what spmdw45 said, which ensures that lower level party ends up with more exp.

 

Roller123, I did not in any way prove that lower-level parties end up with more XP. That there is a flaw in the proof does not prove that the proof's conclusion is incorrect, it just means that the proof does not hold.

Addressing your statement more specifically, "Take an infinite number of equal CR monsters and both parties end up with the same amount of exp... which ensures that lower level party ends up with more exp." The only way this makes sense to me is if "more exp" does not mean "more cumulative exp," i.e. it means "cumulative exp minus exp you already had before the iron golems." If so you're talking about something different than the rest of us are discussing.

If you do mean cumulative exp, then the statement just plain makes no sense. "Same" != "more".

-Max

 

As you're surely well aware, things really do degenerate in all sorts of madness when you prance around the limit of receiving "at least some" and "zero" amount of exp for kills.

For this specific example you brought up: Yes, if you only fight monsters that ALL are at exact same CR, you'll eventually end up at the same level. The only thing that can make a difference in who ends up having more exp is solely decided by how much you overshoot the exp amount for the final kill that nets you the level-up. You know, discretization of exp and all that jazz that Max brought up.

However, if you are to use THAT as an argument for not bothering with extra kills, I'll conjure a similarly pointless one. A party where every single character royally messes up their multiclassing ending up with a 80% experience penalty will STILL end up at the same level, if you're only ever fighting monsters at a constant CR. After five times as long of a grind to get there, yes, but since there's an infinite amount of mobs.. So I could argue that multiclassing exp penalties, in fact, do not matter either?

But I guess I see what you're trying to get at. Whenever you are at the fringe case where you get at least some exp for kills at your current level but will receive zero after you've leveled up, you'll effectively stop and wait while the other, non-powergamed party nibbles itself up to the same level threshold. In that case, the only advantage you gained by powergaming was to reach that threshold a few kills earlier. Which is an advantage still, yet much smaller one.

However, there's several non-apparent issues with this fringe case.
- You don't really see it all that often. Sure, there's the infamous Hook Horror cave and the early Yuan-Ti in Kuldahar that are often reported becoming zero exp kills, even for some full parties, but otherwise you're hardly ever 8 or more levels above the lowest CR monsters. This IS a major issue for parties with less than six characters, though.
- Based on the advice given in the Dungeon Master's books for the very game IWD2 is based on, 3rd edition Dungeon's and Dragons, you're doing something severely WRONG as a DM if your party meets monsters that are so much apart in CR that this becomes an issue. Hence, this fringe case is a design failure at its heart.
- The same DM books describe methods of calculating a CR value for each encounter, while IWD2 only counts exp per singular kill. A horde of weak monsters SHOULD count as a single kill of a monster with a few higher CR value, avoiding the problem of this fringe case, but IWD2 doesn't count it that way. Yet again, design failure.
- For a better approximation of how things really SHOULD be calculated, there's now a perfectly balanced exp table available here at SP. It was discussed in another thread not so long ago. And it DEFINITELY avoids this fringe case altogether.

 

Ehm, please reread my post, as you did substitute relevant parts of it with a "...". Ofc it doesnt make any sense then. Just as much as Sky=Blue, Blue=Colour does not mean Sky=Colour. Im sure it was an oversight. (Basically you put the CR30 example from above in words) (That is not to say that youre not correct, as my statement is indeed not entirely flawless, but that was not my original claim either, nor is the issue easily analyzable, or should i say the outcome entirely depends on input parameters. )

Not exactly the same, it just needs to be below a certain level, which could be everything on a map. Anyhow that discretization thingy, or lack of it, depending on viewpoint, works both ways, with the core problem of IWD2 being that it adjusts exp based on stated level, not real one. Who says that that "final kill" needs to be one monster. You said it yourself below, "encounter based exp". Fine, extend one final kill highCR monster to a highCR encounter(as the party is not automatically ajusted). Exp skyrockets. highCR encounter's "final kill" is extendable to a "highCR map final kill". Extend it to a whole game, and we got level squatting. hehe. Thus the amount of extra exp the lower level party gets is technically unlimited.

First, kill-all mode is not powergaming, as im showing right now. Second, practically yes. Theoretically this is countered by the fact that when the lower level party does level, it will be higher level and thus more powerful. Both advantages even each other out.

Well, thats how the game works. Thus i have difficulties accepting your math as it seems to deal more with books and tabletop, rather than the actual game. Tabletop, i'd agree. IWD2, i think not.

 

I'm sure it was--when I snipped I kept all the parts that seemed relevant, because I honestly am trying to understand what you're saying. The full quote is,

Since "what spmdw45 said" makes no general statement at all about exp and level gain, this becomes:

which as far as I can tell is equivalent to

which was condensed for brevity.

*Edit: Snipped beating a dead horse. Moving on.*

Sir Rechet,

I saw the discussion of the new exp table, but it was too technical for me and I couldn't make out what the goal of the adjusted table was. Could you explain why this is how dynamic levelling "SHOULD" be?

-Max

 

spmdw45

Ah i see. But it does. This is what it is essentially all about, getting huge lumps of exp from a single highCR monster. Only it doesnt have to be a single one. Nothing stops the player to kill two creatures, getting (huge lump of exp)*2. Or N. In our case 4 golems, getting 4 times extra exp.


Regular dynamic levelling operates with real level and forcibly adjusts exp regardless of whether the player picked his levelup bonuses or not. This eliminates level squatting, makes ECL matter, makes multiclassing penalties matter, makes what Sir Rechet said matter and correct. Only problem is, this doesnt work this way in Iwd2. But in every other game of similar class, NWN, Titan Quest, Diablo, Lineage etc.. Not sure what a static table could possibly fix here, other than offsetting the real issue.

 

But then you're just level-squatting for the last three golems, which is no different from level-squatting the experience from killing the monks.

"Makes no general statement" ==> it has yet to be shown whether it applies to the particular case. It's quite possible that the exp decay from killing one golem with a higher level is less than the total exp you'd get from killing the monks. In fact... a typical level 11 party will get 6600 from killing a CR 13 Iron Golem, whereas a level 12 party (from killing the monks, if it happened to push your party level up 1) would get 5400. And for THAT, a 1200 XP boost, you would pass up all the exp from killing the monks and the duergar and completing the duergar quest? Rubbish.

I think I shall have to kill the monks this next time through. In fact I'll probably do that instead of completing their stupid eight chambers.

-Max

 

You aren't still making any sense in how you compare normal play with level-squatted one!

When the lower level party levels up, it is either A) still lower level than the powergamed party or B) at the same level. You don't magically skip whole levels unless you're level-squatting. You will NOT meet monsters that would net you such high exp for a kill that you'd skip whole levels either, unless you're level-squatting. So while you have a theoretical point in that IF you were to meet such an abnormally high CR mob, you could jump levels, it never actually happens in game. So I'm at a loss at what you're trying to prove.

Yes, it's a design flaw that you're ABLE to level-squat in IWD2, and could have been remedied in the way you describe. I don't think anyone has contested that. But just because you're able doesn't mean it was intended to work that way.

I'm just trying to point out that if we're to discuss differences between using varying play strategies (ie. kill everything vs. role-play as you're supposed to vs. do only stuff you want to do), level-squatting must not be a part of it in any way or form. Which means that the player is expected to impose this rule by himself since the game fails to do so. Just because if we don't, any consideration about exp can always be answered by "just level-squat more, you noob." And what's the point in that?

 

I think i wrote that already. If the player is walking past creatures, without killing, he ends up being low level, facing high level creatures, getting sick exp. Notice the word "past". That is, no exp gained, no level squatting. In fact, several areas in the game even encourage the player to do so. It may never happen in those games, where the player decides to go killall mode(getting essentially much less overall exp.)

Well, you are repeatedly confusing powergaming with "killall mode". "Kill everything" is just another way to roleplay the game, where the player decides to, well, kill everything. Powergaming is where the player goes for maximum power, regardless of anything, short of cheats. And level squatting, just as having characters with 1's in stats are legitimate ways of achieving it. Heck, the game allows it. And yes, in IWD2 any consideration about exp is negated by level squatting essentially. If anyone chooses not to use it, thats his way only, not the powergaming one. I mean, sure, selfimposed rules are fine, but it is neither powergaming, nor the most effective way to play. (As rules are meant to limit smthng) Refering to my first statement, killing monks is pointless, from Powergamer's POV. Same for most Roleplayers.

Like said, in any specific case, it totally depends from situation. It is possible to have a party which gets no exp from them, possible to have a party which benefits for a short time, or doesnt. Consider a typical lvl10 party would get 9k*4=36k vs lvl12 21.6k. Thats extra 15000 exp. Duergar attack later in any case, for additional addidional exp, so no bonus there. I would totally pick that, and have some extra quests. And generally speaking, the point of penalty comes sooner or later, be it golems, drows or something else.

 

At last, some specifics! Neglecting ECL effects but taking the EXTREME case of a one-man party which gives maximum benefit to the lower-level scenario:

Lvl10 party has 45,000 XP. Kills 1 CR 13 Iron Golem, gets 4500 XP (not 36K). Now has 49,500 XP.

Lvl12 party has 66,000 XP. Kills 1 CR 13 Iron Golem, gets 2700 XP (not 21K). Now has 68,700 XP.

We clearly see that this is not a case where the lower-level party has more XP. It only gets worse if it's not a one-man party.

On the other hand, maybe you've given up on the iron golems and decided that it's best to sneak past THEM too, until you get to something REALLY worthy. The highest-CR creature in normal mode, according to JUPP's tables, is CR 17 (e.g. Saablic Tan), which is 57600 for the lucky one-man Lvl1 party who kills him though some uncanny luck, catapulting the party instantly to... Lvl11. Hooray. He's still several levels behind even a six-man party, he has about 1/10 their XP, and he gets enhanced but no longer massive XP from killing single creatures, so he can't ever pull this trick again. There is no monster in normal mode with a high-enough CR to boost this guy ahead of a kill-everything party.

There's just no way you can make this scenario work without modding in "bonus" CR 17 monsters in Chapters One & Two.

-Max

 

There is no need for this as im suppling this thread with numbers since the last page, dealing with arguments such as X=a+b*c, therefore Y.

36k is 9000 times 4 golems. 15000 extra exp. I understand you disagree with that, for various general reasons. However a "typical" party will not level after 1/4 golems killed, right, right? Unless the player is being utterly pedantic, which our discussion is inevitably headed to, it seems.

See above. Also we are not limited to normal difficulty. Also funny, youre giving the exact same example, as i did on the last page, with different numbers.

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"-Lvl12 party kills 1 CR 13 Iron Golem, gets 2700 XP
-level 11 party will get 6600 from killing a CR 13 Iron Golem
-Lvl10 party kills 1 CR 13 Iron Golem, gets 4500 XP "

These numbers look wrong to me too, or definitely inconsistent, not sure of their source, are you looking at moncrate, or some "tables".

 

Walking past creatures will eventually lead to getting some juicy numbers for single kills, but just as Max pointed out, you lose most of the juicy bonus as soon as you decide to cash it in. Therefore the only way your "save everything for that single kill" idea is going to end up with more total exp in the end is if that single kill becomes worth more than what you'd get playing normally.

Since normal mode parties end up somewhere in the vicinity of 120-170k exp per character for full parties and closer to 300k for soloers, we're looking forward to get anywhere between 300k and 1M exp for a single kill. That's between CR22 and CR26, if you're at or below level three yourself. None of the monsters fill that criteria in Normal mode, and you'd need to find your first Iron Golem in HOF mode to meet even the lower bound. At character level three, solo. Good luck at that.

Just to spice things up a bit further, there's also these things called forced and mandatory encounters and quests you just absolutely MUST complete to advance the plot. Thus you can't just assume you can get to the later chapters without at least few level-ups along the way, making the CR requirement for that single kill go even further up.

Well, that's the thing we're trying to tell ya, level-squatting can't really be considered legitimate in that it just so totally breaks everything else. Yes, it's powergaming, and I even list it as a method in JUPP, but if you assume the use of it, there's absolutely no point whatsoever in discussing different strategies how to acquire more exp. Level-squatting will trump them all, many times over, end of story.

To add insult to injury, IF we assume level-squatting is used, your strategy of AVOIDING a fight where you could kill something is still a fail. Since you're staying at your pre-squat level (preferably three as it still gives you the maximum amount for kills), you'll effectively get into fixed exp kills system similar to BG2 and its ilk. In that system, any kill is a good kill and will invariably make you stronger -- oh wait, not stronger since you're level-squatting, but more experienced. Therefore, kill-all is still the preferred strategy, in the absolute power-gaming sense.

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They're from MONCRATE.2DA. Just looking at it. I'm aware that it READS 9000 for level 10 party and 5400 for level 12, but you seem to be unaware that the actual in-game value granted is only half of the tabled values.

 

1. 2700 < 6600 < 4500 => wrong
2. Im not the one using them for calculations
3. It doesnt even matter.

Again totally wrong. Youre forgetting the level cap. Hitting the cap makes any kill useless. (smaller parties capped there right at the beginning. )

Slowly youre getting it

Luck is another word for skill. Easiest way to do it would be import lvl1, dismiss rest of the party. Otherwise invisibility&summons.

 

I was using the "Doubled XP In Insane Difficulty" table from here (http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/IWD2/index_mods.php) as a proxy for moncrate (since I don't have IWD2 on this computer), and halving the numbers once to eliminate the doubling, and again because that gives you the actual XP values. You're correct that the numbers are inconsistent--my figures for the Lvl11 party were incorrect because I read the table wrong (overlooked the 0.25 and 0.5 columns AND forgot to divide by four), which means in actuality you don't even gain 1200 extra XP for not killing the monks, you get even less (900 or so? not sure without looking).

You now have everything you need to know in order to draw correct conclusions, so I guess I'm done posting on this subthread.

-Max

Edit: added link

 

Me pointing to your mistakes is definitely all i need to know.

[offtopic]

Actually, all that edit did was replacing "true" with "correct" (neither is). Link was in both versions. But oh well..

Conclusion:
-spmdw45 only eliminates one game creature at a time, w/o ever using AoE damage spells.
-Sir Rechet goes solo for 1m exp kills, with level cap being 500k

Nice "logic"

 

The link was not in the first version, but I added it to be transparent. I may or may not have added the "Edit:" notation in a separate edit ten seconds later. I did edit it again because "correct" read better than "true" in this context, but it wasn't worth a second annotation.

AoE spells cannot kill multiple creatures at once. You can of course choose not to level up after the first one dies, but you can always choose not to level up, including after killing the monks. Edit: No, you're right--I hadn't considered that some of the higher-level spells (WotB, perhaps Holy Word) genuinely can kill simultaneously, unlike Fireball. Not that golems are vulnerable to spells in the first place.

Rude and sarcastic personal comments are unnecessary.

-Max