DominionSeraph's Endurance Powergaming Party.

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By that definition, casting Prayer, Hope, Recitation, or Bless on any party with an Amulet or cloak of protection, gauntlets of weapon skill or expertise, Ring of the Warrior, sash of the black raven, or a Fighter with specialization would be cheating. (Attack, damage, and/or ST stacking)
For a Cleric to use Holy Power, he cannot use the gauntlets of weapon expertise or be under Prayer or Hope. (damage stacking)
A bard can't use his level one song under any circumstance where any party member has a bonus to attack or damage.
A ranger can never attack a favored enemy under any effect of +attack or damage.
A Paladin with at least +1 charisma bonus can never have any other ST bonus in effect.
Prayer, Hope, Recitation, and Bless cannot ever be used in any combination together; so, for example, Prayer, Hope, and Recitation can never be used if the Girdle of Beautification is worn by anyone.

Hey, guess what? DBFB is supposed to be capped at 20d6. AFAIK, Skull Trap doesn't even exist, never mind being a 3rd level xd6 spell that ignores SR.

Shall we continue with the IWD2 "cheats"?

 

Amulet and cloak of protection gives Deflection AC. Ergo it stacks with Hope etc.

The fighters weapon specialization feat is a permanent bonus. Ergo it is not subject to stacking. Its more or less the same as attack bonus and saves increasing when you level up.

Holy Power increases your Str (if I remember correctly) and therefore it stacks with an item that increases your base attack, since they both increase different stats.

The rangers favored enemy feat goes under the same as weapon specialization. Its a level benefit, not a spell or effect.

Items that give the same bonus as a spell does not stack. The only things that stacks in D&D is Natural Armour, and Dodge AC.

Skull Trap excists. Its in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting, or Magic of Faerun (if I remember correctly.

None of these arguments you pose are cheats.

Exploiting bard songs, and level squatting is cheating.

 

Unlike the ring of protection, the amulets and cloaks of protection also give saving throw bonuses. That would be the illegal stacking.

Ok, that puts fighters and rangers back in the same rotten boat with everyone else.

Nope, Holy Power gives a straight +4 to damage. So it should overwrite gauntlets of expertise (+2 damage), or Hope (+2), which should themselves overwrite Prayer (+1) or Ballad of Three Heroes (+1). But they don't. They stack. So to use more than one of those at any one time is to illegally damage stack.

They do in-game. That's rather the point.

Not according to any online source. And I really doubt it's an uncapped damage spell that ignores SR.

You only got two (probably) right there. Everything else is still stacking saves, damage, and/or attack.
I didn't even check to see if the saves of equipment stack.
-- Just checked it with an Amulet of protection +1, Cloak of protection +2, Cloak of displacement (+2 to reflex and fortitude), and Robe of the Evil Archmagi (+1 saves). Equipment saving throw bonuses stack in-game.
CHEAT!!

So now, not only can you not cast Prayer, Recitation, or Hope on your party if any member is using a ST(saving throw) increasing item, but each party member is limited to only one ST increasing item. That's even more crippling than disallowing multiple attack bonus items, as there are MANY game items that give a saving throw bonus.

Shall we continue with the cheats?

Executioner's Eyes +4 attack. That stacks with other +attack.
Just checked Mord's Sword. Its (caster level + 4) bonus to attack stacks with items and spells. So it can't legally be used while under any other effect.
Just checked and Tenser's also illegally stacks.

Ha! My sorc now has attacks of +66, +61, +56, +51 from a BAB of 17, 12, 7, 2.
I just cast Prayer, Recitation, and Aid (he already had Hope), and now it's 70, 65, 60, 55! And that's WITHOUT any Bard Songs running!

Oh crap, I just spent 5 minutes testing Spirit Armor for reflex saves as per the manual. It's been changed to fortitude in-game. D'oh! But it stacks with items and spells. So there's anothing cheatin' spell.

Magic Circle against Evil's +2 ST bonus stacks with other spells/items.

Holy Aura, Divine Shell, and Chant have also now been confirmed to stack with other spells/items. (I can't believe I forgot about Chant!)

Tymora's Melody's +2 saves stack with spells/items.

I think that just leaves Emotion: Rage for its +1 to Will saves to test. I don't have that spell. Can anyone think of any other that gives an attack, damage, or saving throw bonus? (Shield says it gives +3 reflex in the manual, but that was apparently changed. Spell Shield I don't care about given how retarded it is. It doesn't matter if it's legal or not, nobody's ever gonna use it.)

Ok, just did a max attack bonus try on my Bard/Sorc. Prayer/Bless/Chant/Recitation/Hope/Aid/gauntlets of expertise/2x rings of the warrior/Mord's Sword/Tenser's Transformation and 6x Ballads of the Three Heroes.

+79/+74/+69/+64/+62
Add +4 to that if I had Executioner's Eyes as a spell. (I only have it on a weapon and it can't be used with Mord's Sword)

And the only thing you're complaining about is the +6 from stacking Bard Songs?

 

A spell that gives a bonus to saves don`t stack with amulet of protection. True. Same goes if you are wearing some gauntlets with a str bonus, and cast bull\s strength on the fellow.

Spells that increase damage do stack with the damage bonus on the weapon itself. Has to do with the enchantment being on the sword, and the spell being cast on the character itself.

I know alot of stuff stacks in this game. But thats due to "bugs" rather than anything else. Wich is why I used The Player`s Handbook as refferance.

No idea what online source you are using, but in the pen and paper game I am GMing now adays (set in the forgotten realms), the wizard in the group has a skull trap spell. The spell works the same as in IWDII. It ignores spell resistance as well. Due to the fact that after the spell is cast, it turns into a "trap". Hence the name.

Amulets and cloaks etc that stack, depends on wich saves they increase. If they increase the same save, they overlap.

Mord Sword +4 stacking with spells and items is allowed. The +4 bonus is on a summoned sword. I explained that bit further up. Nothing illegal there.

Tensers transformation is also allowed. It changes the caster into a fighter. Ergo he gets the level benefits from that class. Minus the bonus feats of course.

if spirit armour stacks with say...a ring of fortitude, its another boo boo, yes.

Ohh I can complain about other stuff too. Sure. But it was the exploiting of multiple bard songs, that was the topic of the discussion.

Ever notice how bard songs just don`t make sense? Its a song increasing morale. So everyone within listening range should get that bonus. Including enemies. You can run into another party of adventures, wich dont get the bonus from your bard. But they still hear the song. But if their own bard starts singing the exact same song, they get the bonus. Even if they are allready hearing the song to begin with.

 

"Let's get those guys over there!"

Sure -- just like the cheerleaders for one team always end up accidentally boosting the opposing team's morale by...you know, it's just easier to try and not be snarky for a change, so I'll try to answer this one logically.

Who says it's the exact same song? It's not like programmers were going to create a sub-program to give every group it's own individual theme song, LOL! The lyrics are probably subjective enough -- "Hey, let's get those guys over there!" -- that the only one who benefits from that particular bard's song, even if it is the same song as the one use by the opposing bard, is someone who is on the same side as that bard.

Seriously, dude -- you're overthinking this WAY too much.

 

Ok, I found something:

Skulltrap (Necromancy, Evocation)
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M
Duration: Special
Casting Time: 4
Area of Effect: One Skull
Saving Throw: 1/2
This ward may be placed on any non-living skull or the skull of an undead skeleton. The skulltrap remains dormant until the skull is touched by living matter or is struck and damaged by non-living matter (for instance, it’s struck by in combat or falls to the floor). Assume a normal skull is AC 8 and has 2 hp. This simple warding does not discriminate; it can just as easily be triggered by the wizard who cast the spell as by a curious rat brushing up against it.
When the skulltrap discharges, the skull flashes briefly with red or violet light and violently explodes, releasing a blast of energy drawn from the Negative Material plane. The burst of negative energy does 2d4 hp damage plus 1d4 hp damage for every level of the caster. All living creatures within 10’ of the skull must make a saving throw vs. breath weapon to suffer only half damage from the blast.
Because the trap is so easily triggered, the skull is often placed in its final resting place before casting the spell on it. The trapped skull may be moved without triggering the trap, but it must be moved very slowly and without contact with living matter. Gloves or any other thin materials used to cover the flesh of a living being are not enough to prevent the skulltrap from being discharged. The material component is a pinch of dust from the physical remains of a corporeal undead being with strong ties to the Negative Material Plane, such as a wight or vampire.

Not quite the same thing as a hurled skull o' death, though.

I't's caster level +4, not +4. But the description does say "the sword has a bonus to attack of x," so ok.

Ok, it seems that Tensers STR and DEX bonuses also stack with Champion's Strength and Cat's Grace, as I am now looking at a 38 STR 27 DEX sorc from a base of 25/18.
Since non-stacking ability bonuses is one of the things the game gets right, I'll assume that's as intended, which means the + attack bonus would be of the stacking variety too.

Which still just leaves every other +damage/+attack/and +saving throw to improperly stack.

Bard songs stack just like every other +damage/+attack/+saving throw piece of equipment or spell in the game. The AC type is generic, which is also a type which validly stacks.

The only things in the game which don't stack are ability bonuses (except from Tensers), individual shield/armor/deflection bonuses, and DR of x/+x variety.
Bard songs give none of those.

If you want to consider everything else stacking to be an illegal bug exploit, good luck playing the game. I'm certainly not going to stop using Emotion: Hope simply because I have an Amulet of Protection +1.

Home field advantage does not confer an equal bonus.

 

Using the same bard song 6 times. And each bard song stacking, is the same as casting 6 bull`s strength spells, and have them stacking. Plain and simple.

 

Better example would be 6 Prayers (since it grants bonuses which stack in-game).

But bards are not spells. Whereas a Cleric may have 2 prayers, by casting the bonuses are conferred by the spell, not the Cleric. Being identical entities they do not stack. But a bard only has one Ballad of Three Heroes, and it is not cast. The bonus is conferred by the bard.
To get another Ballad of Three heroes requires another bard. This is not the same bonus-conferring item, it is a separate song.

Prayers to different deities are also separate things. If you have two clerics of different faiths, their prayers should stack, assuming the second deity deigns to confer his favor on a party already blessed by another.

 

Your "logic" is faulty as Bard Songs are not divine spells or prayers (in other words you're not proving anything by trying to draw an analogy that doesn't justify anything -nice try though).

By the way, Rawgrim already pointed out the stupidity of the Bard Song stacking:

Getting different and "separate" songs to stack can't be justified in any sensible way...

 

To be honest, the idea that Bards complement each other's song (orchestra anyone?) has some merit. I could see that working, albeit with diminishing returns. Simple 1+1+1+1+1+1 shouldn't give 6x stronger effect in this case. Having a 6-man chorus just doesn't make sense to me, unless you yogastretch the "magic" of the song "combining in a swirling vortex of pure inspiration, empowering everyone to unseen feats of ability" type of BS. I doubt you'll find any decent GM to allow anything like that though.

If we reverse songs in a manner, it just doesn't make sense for 6 banshees to "stack" their screams to an absurd DC no one can pass. Rather, each gets their own saving throw.


I'm fairly certain that if the developers wanted songs to stack they would not call them with exactly the same name. It would be a minor bother to create 5 more songs adding "stacks with song nr.x" to the tooltip. As it is, everything is the same song, and you can't sensibly turn that into an orchestra (and good luck syncing 6 person song in the middle of combat).
To me, this is the most persuading argument - Same name, same song, meant to be played by one bard.


Oh, final note.. While it's made by D&D rules, i don't think we've ever seen a D&D crpg exactly following the rules. Each deviate in one way or another, because it simply makes sense. The different medium imposes different restrictions and you can't allow all the possibilities of PnP into a computer game no matter how hard you try. The target audience is also wider - munchkin-ism more accepted, hence the gearing up process more emphasized. One of the easier ways to do that is allowing things that don't stack in PnP to stack in your game. That, of course blurs the lines significantly between intentional stacking and overlooked bugs. Solution - game developer statement/patches, or if no luck from that department - "what seems right" to each individual player.

 

Spells cast by clerics of different deities do not stack. Ergo you can`t line up clerics from 50 different gods, have all of them cast Bull`s strength on your character, and end up with a str score of 500 (give or take). If a spell gives a bonus to a stat, no matter who casts the spell, only the highest boost to that stat counts. The rest overlaps.

EDIT: Gothmug, bard`s can improve eachothers performance in D&D. If a bard, with at least 2 ranks in Perform, helsp out another bard with a perform skillcheck, the bard gets a +2 bonus to his check. Its only +2 though, no matter how many ranks the other bard has in his Perform skill. I do belive that bonus can also be added to bard songs. Gives a +2 DC to resist their songs, and such. Nothing really heavy though.

 

You're rules lawyering. I'm DM'ing. There's a difference.

 

Nope. You are god-moding.

 

No. You're trying to be a DM and a player at the same time...

That's what makes it really close to god-moding. No self-respecting DM would let anyone get away with such exploits in a pen and paper game (except maybe if the player was the DM's girl/boyfriend ).

As far as calling other people "rules lawyers" you should really examine what that term means: "A rules lawyer is a participant in a rules-based environment who attempts to use the letter of the law without reference to the spirit, usually in order to gain an advantage within that environment."

For the record, that is exactly what you've been doing with your Bard song stacking abuse.

The fact that you don't use cheat codes or trainers doesn't mean that you're not god moding. The game may allow it and as far as game mechanics are concerned it may work seemingly without breaking the rules (i.e. you don't have to use a third party program or a cheat code) but that doesn't make it a legitimate build since no matter how you take it into consideration it is clearly an exploit (it clearly unbalances the game and that has been pointed out by every person who has posted in this thread so far, no argument there).

A powergamer may add a level to multiclass a character without taking into consideration RP elements (or he/she may have worked out a convoluted argument to justify taking a level in another class) but that is still a very different thing (the justification for a Sorcerer taking a Paladin level may be farfetched but it's probably still better than any of the arguments that have been put forward so far to try and justify the bard song stacking).

Abusing something that is so close to a bug is more like giving a specialized Wizard a level in another class so this character will be able to scribe any scrolls. The game allows it but it doesn't make it right (circumventing limitations can't be right). Not that I expect DominionSeraph to agree of course.

Relying on the bard song stacking to make an entire party would be like making an entire party that relied on Improved Invisibility. Such a party would make for a very unchallenging game no matter what classes or builds would be thrown in. Would it be effective? Probably. Would it show any talent or ingenuity on the player's part? None whatsoever.

I've pointed out earlier that some players can solo HoF with a melee character and that requires more skill than coming up with a party that is based on an exploit that doesn't make any sense RP wise (and I'm not even taking level squatting into account), or if we start to think about it seriously (Rawgrim's analogy about the 4 CD players) or if we just take into account game mechanics (stacking so many bonuses is clearly broken and that is why only few players have ever considered it, let alone actually played an entire party based on the song stacking exploit).

 

Caradhras pretty much hit the nail right on the head.

 

Rules for a convoluted game like IWD2 are more or less a democratic process. Whereas there's nothing convoluted about the rules of, say, Chess. The common denominator decides which rules apply and which don't. Of course anyone is free to express their opinions about the rules, but trying to ENFORCE them on others pretty soon leads to getting the opportunity to play completely solo.

Domininion, you happened to choose not only one but two of the top 5 exploits of all time in IWD2 to justify your party. You may have been oblivious to the fact and considered them being just something cool you've discovered, I'd have no idea. But you're pretty much alone in considering them as LEGITIMATE ways of boosting the numbers. That's why you get the "we're not impressed by your blatant cheating" response.

You think your party is the best. Given the rules you allow yourself, it might as well be so. But trying to say your party is the best overall is akin to saying extreme doping would be a good idea for a world-class athlete.

 

Ok, I thought it was due to the heavy multiclassing into +0 BAB classes that my three mainliners didn't get 5 attacks/rd, but I just made a Fighter(30) and he only has 4.
Is my game bugged?

 

4 base attacks per round is the maximum amount, I belive. With two-weapon fighting you get alot more. Its actually possible to get around 20 attacks in d&d, with abit of munchkining. Kind of wierd, since 1 round in d&d lasts for 6 seconds. Can`t get 20 attacks per round in IWD2 though.

 

That would explain what I've observed, since my chars don't seem to get above 4att/rnd, 5 with certain items.. But according to the manual, warrior classes should get 5/rnd at level 21. Other classes at level 28, except wiz/sorc who never exceed 3/rnd.

 

AT/round isn't there to represent how fast you cna swing your sword, it's there to show how much damage you can cause due to your skill so to say.