Need Advice on Bard/Rogue Dual Class

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Hi i am the deathknight. I've been playing infinity engine games for a while. Beat the baldurs gate series (except tob). To my disappointment, i have never actually beaten either of the icewind dale games. I like the 2nd a lot more due to the 3rd rules. My favorite class in these games and in all games is a rogue type character. Rogue/Bard/Duelist/Assassin/etc....

I like all of those chars and any that requires finesse. I have already come up with a party before talking about my rogue class.

-Human barbarian with focus in two-handed swords and max strength and constitution. Basic terror tank.

-Dwarf fighter with focus in onehanded axes and shields. Is an offensive and defensive fighter. Has high strength and very high constitution.

-Human Cleric of mask. Is a summoner and buffer + aids party by making them invisible so they can surprise. Uses crossbow in battle.

-Tiefling Rogue/Bard-Minor spellcasting up to lvl 2 spells. Will be a lvl 5 bard and the rest will be in rogue. This is the character i need advice for. I want to get to lvl 2 spells for bard so i can give him blur (20% chance to miss char for 5 minutes) and mage armor from lvl 1 spells. Plus a few nifty other spells. This will make him the master mage slayer, which is what i wanted for this char. Is this a good choice or should i just stick with a regular rogue? I really want to try this class, im just not sure whether it will work.

 

Ultimately it depends on what you want for the character. Have you considered taking wizard levels instead of bard? You would gain access to those spells far sooner.

If you want Bard for role playing reasons, or because of Charisma (ie party diplomat), then personally I would rather have more levels in bard than in rogue. Take 5 levels of Rogue for the evasion feat and 2d6 sneak attack damage, then the rest in bard. That will get you some nifty spells as well as some of the better bard songs.

But then its totally up to you and your playing style. If you arent big into spell casting or bard songs, then maybe take some levels in a warrior class such as ranger or fighter, and the rest in rogue. Or even bard 5/fighter 4/rogue x.

 

Thanks for the quick reply. The reason i was asking is because i had read kayless's faq for multiclassing and he states that bards are pretty much useless in iwd2. Now i know that cant be completely right, i love bards in bg2. But i did a little reasearch on the bards spells on gamebanshee and from lvl 4-8 spells are not as good as the first few lvls. In this particular game i have no need of summoning. I am looking for a thief type character with useful spells (defensive and a few offensive), and decent health. The main reason i dislike taking wizard levels is because bards can hold their own in a fight compared to wizards, wizards have little to no life, and like you said-roleplaying. If i was going to take a spellcaster i would take a sorcerer since he, like the bard, doenst have to write his spells down. I like that cause it gives a lot more flexibility.

 

I'm probably not the best person to ask since I never play with bards, but I hear their songs can be incredibly powerful if used right. I know bards get Tymora's Melody at level 5, which grants a bonus to luck (read up on luck, can be very powerful) and War Chant of the Sith at level 11, not sure what it does exactly but I think its damage reduction and regeneration.

I'm not sure how you could roleplay a sorcerer into a rogue type character, so in that regard a bard might be a better fit. And as I said, you get access to the bard songs.

Don't disregard wizards/sorcerers as fighters though - read the JUPP (Jukka's Ultimate Powergaming Party Guide) on how to use sorcerers and wizards more effectively in combat. Of course, thats headed straight into powergaming territory with no connection to role playing so its probably not for you at all. However, it may have some interesting information for you, such as what bards can do for you.

 

Bard levels over a vanilla Rogue? At level 1, Bard gives +1 attack +1 damage to all allies. At level 4, Bull's Strength, which is at least +1 attack and +1 damage to a melee character, and can be up to +3 attack, and +4 damage to a two-handed wielder. At level 5, add in +1 luck, which is effectively another +1 attack and ~+1 damage, except your greatsword wielder gets double the damage benefit, so ~+2 damage. (1.666 not including the increased crit chance)
At level 7 there's Emotion: Hope for +2 attack and +2 damage to the party for 50 rounds. Also Haste for +4 AC and an extra attack. (you'll have enough castings for both at 8-9)
At level 11, War Chant of the Sith for a stacking 2AC, 2/- DR, and 3 hp/rd in combat.

Would I take this over an additional 5d6 (17.5 average) sneak attack damage? YES! Especially given sneak attack mechanics in-game.

From a perspective of simple efficiency, if you want a mageslayer, casting Invisibility on a hasted fighter and sending him on ahead to get into position will get the job done better than a Rogue.

This I gotta take a look at. Link? Because Bards are one of the better classes.
Now most people carry around a sorc and that cuts into what a Bard brings. But you have no other arcane casters!

The difference in your party between having and not having a Bard will be night and day. Most of your damage will be coming from that Barbarian (even more so if you give him 4 levels of Fighter.) You do NOT want him whiffing on a swing!

Watch this:
Fighter(4)/Barbarian(3). BAB +7/+2
+4 AB from 19 strength (18 base +1 levelup)
+1 Focus
+1 AB from Aid. (Aid has enough duration that you can keep it as a constant effect)

So +13/+8. Still going to be missing, especially with that attack 2.

Damage:
2d6 +6 (str) +1 (aid) +2 (specialization) = 16 average. x2 crit on 19-20 yields 17.6 average with crits.

Rage can improve these a bit, but only for 5 rounds.


With Bard(7) to buff:

+7/+2 BAB
+6 AB from 22+ STR thanks to Bull's Strength. (7 hour duration)
+1 Focus
+1 Aid
+1 Courage
+1 Tymora's
+2 Hope

+19/+14

Damage:
2d6 (luck enhanced to improve every roll except a 6 by +1) +9 (STR) +1 (aid) +1 (courage) +2 (specialization) +2 (hope) = 23.66 average. +1 luck from Tymora's Melody effectively gives a crit on 18-20 (because a roll of 18 becomes 19) for 27.2 average damage including crits.


(Damn, I wrote all that forgetting that Clerics get Bull's and Champion's strength. Champion's is shorter duration, though; especially noticeable at lower levels; and Bull's takes up the slot for Aid with Clerics. It is still better to have a Bard for casting Bull's while the cleric goes Champion's and Aid. When Champion's 4+1d4 falls off you still have 1+1d4 from Bull's.)

I'm more of a sling guy myself. There are only 2 (bugged) crossbows that'll get you to 4 and 5 attacks per round (normal/HoF version). A sling wielded by an 18 STR character has the same average damage as a Heavy Crossbow to begin with, will end up surpassing it with Bull's/Champion's strength, and far exceed it when you start getting additional attacks.

Rogues get evasion at level 2 by my manual and 2d6 by level 3. Level 5 just gives another die of sneak attack.

 

I thought they only got sneak attack damage every 5 levels? Anyway, yeah I know they get evasion at 2nd level, the OP seemed set on more than 3 rogue levels.

Keep in mind the OP is more interested in role playing than powergaming.

 

Dominion Seraph said-"This I gotta take a look at. Link? Because Bards are one of the better classes.
Now most people carry around a sorc and that cuts into what a Bard brings. But you have no other arcane casters!"

Link-http://www.gamebanshee.com/forums/icewind-dale-ii-31/kayless-guide-to-multi-classing-16791-p4.html Kayless talks throughout the faq about how bards are not good mix characters and overall are weak. He does the same for rangers, another one of my favorite characters.

I know i was surprised too, it seems like bards get a bad rap from people that dont know how to use them. All people are interested nowadays is powergaming. They want the ultimate build that can awesome just so they can feel good about themselves. Me, i am into a balance of both. I like builds that work for me, and no one else really tries.

I appreciate the advice you guys gave. Dominion would it be realistic to get my bard to lvl 8 and rogue 12 (i have to be higher lvl than bard cuz tieflings favored class is rogue) ? I hope so cause this build is sounding better by the minute. My 2 favorite classes meshed in 1!

 

The favored class doesn't need to be higher -- the favored class isn't counted at all.

I'm not entirely sure what level a four-member party should expect to reach by the end of normal. 18 or 19 doesn't seem out of the question.
You might want to go to Bard(9) for the additional 3rd level spell. With 16 CHA giving you a bonus spell you'll still only have two castings at level 8, and Emotion: Hope is a must-have buff.

*** powergaming to follow***

Personally, if I were to play this class combo, I'd go with human.
A Tiefling gets +2 dex, +2 int, but -2 cha. A Bard/Rogue needs all 3 of those abilities, so a Tiefling only gives you a net of +2 ability points.
Human gets +1 skillpoint per level. +1 skillpoint is what +2 INT gives you. So +1 skillpoint is the equivalent of a +2 INT bonus. (A 14 INT human gets the same number of skill points as a 16 INT tiefling)

So both races effectively have +2 ability points.

Human gets +1 feat at first level.
While Tiefling takes a penalty of ECL+1. (!!)

So with Tiefling you're taking an ECL penalty and missing out on a feat for really no gain. (A Tiefling can hit a DEX of 20 upon creation while a human can only hit 18, but a Human will be 1 level higher, giving greater BAB to compensate for the lower weapon finesse and more skill points to compensate for a lower skill bonus. The only thing the level doesn't make up for is the +1AC, but you can catch up to that, too. Leather armor has a max dex bonus of +6, so cast Cat's Grace on a 19 DEX human and you'll be at the limit of your armor 75% of the time. [19 dex is a sweet spot, and a human can get there at level 4.] The other bonuses of Tiefling [elemental resistances, racial spell, etc,] are nothing to write home about.)

Considering Bard goodies are dependent on level, (spell progression/new songs,) I would want to get them as soon as possible. That means a race with no ECL adjustment.
And the extra feat will be REALLY nice because of the feat progression. Watch:
You'll want to take Rogue as your Character Creation level for the ton of skill points The problem there is that your "must have" feats for a dex-based Bard/Rogue -- Weapon Finesse and Lingering Song -- aren't available yet. Lingering Song is bard-only (and you're not a bard yet), and Weapon Finesse requires a BAB of +1. So, out of the feats actually available to this character upon creation, what stands out? Two-Weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity! But if you only have one feat to spend, you can only get one of those, making dual-wielding not worth it. (I wouldn't dual-wield at a penalty of -4/-4 (ambidexterity); and -2/-6 (TWF) is still kinda pointless.)
Because you're going to want to get Lingering Song as your level 3 feat and Weapon Finesse as your level 6, going Tiefling would push effective dual-wielding out to level 9.

Of course, I'd skip Finessing entirely and get Rapid Shot instead because you can do this:

*** Stat dumping and metagaming to follow ***

Human:
15/16/13/14/3/15

Why these stats?
15 STR = 75% chance of 18 STR with Bull's Strength.
16 DEX, +1 at level four ability increase = 17 DEX = 75% chance of 20 DEX with Cat's Grace, which is good enough.
13 CON + 1 at level eight level-up = retroactive 8hp/level instead of 7.
14 INT = Enough skillpoints for Diplomacy, Disable Device, Open Lock, Knowledge, Search, Hide, and Move Silently.
WIS = dump
15 CHA + Winter Wolf Hat = 16 CHA giving the Bard bonus level 1, 2, and 3 spells, the highest level this character will reach.

Feats: TWF + Ambidexterity
Lingering Song
Rapid Shot.

He would do good damage in melee, and when melee was to dangerous, he could switch to a sling and still have multiple attacks per round with a strength bonus.

By level 16 he'd look like 20/20/14/14/16 with his 1 hour/level buffs running.

---------- Added 17 hours, 22 minutes and 54 seconds later... ----------

Ok, you got me playing with your party layout (Tank, Healer, Me Smash Good, and Bard/Rogue), and after clearing the docks, I can say that there's no way that I'm going past Rogue(3). I probably won't even go past Rogue(2).
Sneak attack mechanics just suck THAT bad.

I was hiding, scouting, positioning... and I still got only ONE sneak attack in the entire Docks.

Now I have to decide what to do with him. Light fighter or ranged singer?
Ranged singer would make the most sense given that melee will be crowded, but I've played that before, so I guess I'll still try to play him Rogue-like.

I'm guessing my progression will go:
Rogue
Bard
Bard
Bard
Bard
Bard
Rogue
Bard
Bard
Bard
Fighter
Fighter
Fighter
Fighter