Has anyone tried Improved Anvil v6?

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Over at the blackwyrmlair forums Sikret has been working on the Improved Anvil mod for several years, and up until v5 it was completely free. Announcing massive improvements in v6, new graphics by professional designers among other things, he also announced that it will no longer be free.

Is it worth paying for if you enjoyed the previous versions? Looking at the link, how much do you have to pay to get the mod? It says $6 for privileged and $30 for premium membership. Will privileged allow you to download the mod?

 

You would need to pay $30.

I haven't played v6. There's a thread at G3 in General Mod Discussion that deals with IA v6. There's a lot of crap in the thread, but also a lot of interesting information, particulary in posts by geh4th, the bigg, and saros. Basically, it seems like Sikret spent so much time trying to make sure that people (a) couldn't use what he considered cheese, and (b) played the mod the way he wants them to play it, that he sucked out all the fun from the mod (assuming you think extremely difficult mods are fun).

 

I wouldn't bother.
It looks more and more like Sikret and his kind form some kind of restricted inner circle
accessable only to the illuminated ones.
Forgive my sarcasm, but I really liked IA in the past, nowadays they cloud it so massively that I lost all interest.
After all it is only a mod of a game they didn't make or don't own.
They'll tell you it is still free, though want money from you for being able to play it (the newest version).
The fee isn't that high (well if you really like it, otherwise it is), but I wouldn't bother out of principle.

 

As a side note, according to the main page at BWL forums (which you can still access without paying), as of now the last post in the IA forum was 3 weeks ago. If the popularity of a mod can be judged at least in part by the activity in its forum, that tells you something...

 

What, pay for a mod? Not a chance...

 

WHAT????? Pay for a mod? With so many others out there for free???? And previous version(s) out there for free??? Imbeciles!!!

I would understand if maybe a zillion people were actually playing it, but IA? Tried it, didn't really like it. That mod made the game ridiculous. For me, mods like IA take the fun out of it. OR better yet, as a long time D&D fan, it takes the nostalgia out of it.....

 

Are you paying for the mod? Or for access to Black Wyrm Lair? I think I recall reading several months ago that the website was requiring payments in order to keep it up and running. It was either, the fans help out financially, or the site would have to go away.

Is payment now being required on an "per mod" basis? I would find that hard to believe, as that would be rather illegal.

 

The site requires payment for access and a few mods are only available on that site. It was a rather convoluted decision that lead to a few authors requesting work to be taken down and other malarky. All the fun of the fair.

Moving on to payment for a mod though is just... well. I wouldn't pay and it would have to be *exceptional* for me to pay for it. It's one thing to put funds towards a community, it's another to want payment for signing up to read more about the mod... then pay for the mod...

There was someone on here a while back who set up a blog and a poll asking how much people would be willing to pay to support him building a similar application. I'm wondering if the influence was drawn from that. Last time I checked the poll there were a few votes saying they'd happily pay up to $10 a month for this single program.

 

IMO it’s splitting hairs to suggest there’s a difference between charging for a mod and requiring payment to access a site, where said access is the only way you can acquire that mod. Particularly in the case of Improved Anvil and Black Wyrm Liar, prior to BWL becoming a paid site, I think IA was BWL’s most popular mod by far (and even then, it wasn’t all that popular), so charging to access BWL is essentially the same thing as charging for IA.

In terms of the legality of charging for a mod, I’m not a lawyer, so I may be way off base here. I’m not sure whether it is illegal to charge for a mod or not. My understanding is that it can be illegal (depending on a game’s copyright terms) to create a mod in the first place, and in the case of BG2, I believe mod creation is technically in violation of the copyright. However, the game’s license holders (currently Atari I think) haven’t done anything about it because they recognize that mods actually benefit the game’s sales. The fear in the modding community is that the license holders might draw the line if someone decided to try to profit from a mod, and depending on whether they decide to take action, and how they do so, it could be bad news for the entire modding community. So if charging for a mod isn’t illegal, it’s certainly irresponsible (and arguably immoral).

 

I don't know about "splitting hairs." If a website is in financial trouble and in need of support to stay online, then that's actually a fairly signficant distinction from, if you want to play my mod come over to my public website and pay a $30 fee to download it. I'm not a lawyer either, but I know these sorts of distinctions can make a big difference legally (unfortunately, I have to work with lawyers a lot in my profession -- sorry lawyers, no offense -- if I'm bothered by you, it probably means you're doing your job well).

That said, I've had a chance to read up a little on some of the threads (read: controversy) surrounding a closed IA 6 beta that only select paying BWL customers can gain access to. And it does seem that there's a sharp focus on IA and paying, but I guess this is at least to some extent, Sikret's way of backing up Baronius.

There are at least 20 different "editorial" comments I could now add to a paragraph 3, but almost anything I might say is bound to fan the flames of the "BWL vs. the rest of the world" controversy that has been brewing on and off for many, many years. I can see no need for that.

At the end of the day, I guess I will conclude, to each his own.

 

Anybody needs IA v6 full, PM me. Or download here

No it's not worth 30$, but it's worth playing it since it's a nice improvement over v5. No, it's 30$ for v6 access.

 

Anyone who might be concerned that the above link is risky, I'm guessing no. isleepwithgoats is also registered at G3 (using a somewhat more "colourful" name), and assuming it's the same person, I haven't heard anything bad about what (s)he provides.

 

Yes. Download with confidence, thats the final release of v6. My only guess is they will speed up the release of v7 to milk more money or completely close down the forums, as I doubt anybody else subscribed since I made v6 public ( they only had about 4-5 premium members to begin with ).

Walkthru at G3 ( Necro and Vagrant run by Nicoper ), + other useful info in the Anvil thread there.

 

(Just a quick FYI: BWL is dead at the moment, I contacted the hosting company's support; before it died completely, I could log in and it looked like a harddisk problem, so who knows what will happen... I have backups but no free time to upload them to another server etc. This is/was still the "old" server because we decided to wait until contract completely ends, so all donations we've received so far can be used for the newer package subscription, at another hosting company.)

About that hosted mod on megaupload: it was checked by more BWL members, last time it contained a trojan in WeiDU.exe (every scanner found it so I'm not sure if the uploader intentionally added it or rather his/her computer was infected with viruses -- probably the latter), the latest version looks valid, but it's outdated. Outdated because it was leaked by a member before the latest closed beta patches and fixes (and he was banned after it). It still contains much v6 content though, that's true.

About some of the statements in the above posts:

First of all, every mod except Improved Anvil v6 (which is a closed beta, yes) is available on Dragon's Hoard for free (yes, BWL is down at the moment, but check google cache or whatever you can, if you want to see the hundreds of downloadable mods). About authors asking mods to be removed, no such thing happened, it's a lie. Tower of Deception, Vlad's mods, and all other important and smaller BWL projects are still hosted at BWL. On a side note, for those who think BWL became 'paying', BWL also hosts a lot of free content (gigabytes), e.g. the biggest graphics resource for IE/BG2 modders ( http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...ommunity.html+blackwyrm+community+assets&cd=2 )

This is a typical text of those who just don't want to admit they're WEAK to play the mod. Poor tactical skills or no patience. Improved Anvil is for the best only, and those who want to be the best BG2 tacticians after drawing their learning curve and investing lot of time to learn and develop new tactics. The result is not only Improved Anvil-specific: some people already confirmed that after Improved Anvil, other tactical mods are easy as pie

About donating for privileged membership (and due to that, access to closed betas and premium fan club forums), I can only say to everyone: don't donate if you don't want, noone forces you, it's that easy

 

Baronious,

Weak??? Really, that's your response?

There is nothing about BG2 that is too hard of a challenge to conquer, even with IA installed. A Tactical challenge is one thing, SCS makes the game a bit more of a challenge without going overboard. IA on the other hand is all about going overboard. Reminds me of beating IWD I or II and then playing thru agin on Heart of Fury mode. A goblin with 80-100 HPs? Really? I just find that lame and boring.... You can try to change a game and make each fight as hard as possible if you want, but I will never see the fun in it. There's adding to the game and then there's adding TOO MUCH to the game. IA crosses that line IMO. If you disagree, I'm cool with that. If you think you are a "Iron Modder" or some such, more power to you I guess. But WEAK??? Come on dude, really? When I was a bit younger it might of been fun, but now, I find more subtle mods more enjoyable.

 

Okay, Baronius, I'm going to bite a little bit today. First off, I enjoy Improved Anvil for what it is. I played version 4.2 as far as EDE and version 5 nearly as far. I’m certainly not a master tactician by Sikret’s standards, but I made it through nearly all of his mod twice without using what he defines as cheap or cheesy tactics, or cheats.

So from the perspective of someone who has played Improved Anvil, allow me to suggest there are many reasons outside of “weakness” that someone might choose not to play it. What are the reasons someone might play Baldur's Gate in the first place? Roleplaying, nostalgia, escape, enjoyment of particular classes/party compositions (which may be nearly impossible to win with in IA), an undying love for Viconia…. And sure, we can also add to that list a desire to play the ultimate tactical challenge. But this is merely ONE possibility on a nearly endless list of reasons to play this game. If someone doesn’t happen to prioritize this particular style of game, it isn’t necessarily due to weakness… maybe too much tactical challenge distracts from the all important love affair with a certain dark elf cleric.

But, you imply that weakness is the typical, logical explanation for someone not choosing to play Improved Anvil, and this suggests that your understanding of what gaming provides and represents to different individuals is narrow. In this case, the underlying thesis of your statement is that computer games such as Baldur’s Gate 2 are best used to provide the greatest tactical challenge possible. Allow me to assure you, this is simply not true for everyone. It might be true for you, but for you to apply your opinion to others who value BG2 for different reasons, simply stated, is a misapplication of your opinion.

I happen to respect your contributions to the modding community, and I certainly respect Sikret as well. But you often seem to approach gaming as if you have discovered “the answer” and you’ve come to enlighten those who are ignorant. If we’re talking about the laws of physics, this might be an appropriate way to go about it. When we’re talking about enjoyment of a game, or any other subjective topic, there simply is no one answer. There are only many people, many perspectives, and hopefully, a willingness and readiness to respect those who see it differently than you.

-Calling those who don’t “weak” is not a good show of respect.
-Implying that 8people "lied" isn't either. I mean, might she just be misinformed? There you go talking about your opinion (about her motive) as if it's a fact again.

On another note, sorry to hear about the issues with your server. Hope they get you up and running again soon

 

A "long-winded" forum post, but I recommend to everyone my spontaneous analysis (first few paragraphics) about where most of the anti-Improved Anvil posts originate from.

Indeed, there are many many other reasons someone might choose not to play Improved Anvil. But usually those do not write emotionally impulsive posts about how they do NOT play Improved Anvil etc. There are just too many posts about this. Some percent of them might be strictly an expression of opinion, but as far as I've noticed, they're mostly for "bashing" Improved Anvil, because those who truly don't care about it or avoid it will not dedicate free time to write emotionally impulsive posts. (For example, last I read the Improved Anvil-related posts of David Wallace, author of SCS and SCS2, there wasn't any "disappointment" or "defying" in his style and words, he expressed it objectively why it's not his cup of tea. In this case, I *can* believe it's true and the criticism/refusal is without personal emotional motivation.)

Many players feel hurt, because they feel that their "right" to be babysitted is violated; that the mod is not adjusted to meet their abilities and wishes to the maximum extent. You know, this is a bit simplified but in marketing, they talk of two things for successful sales: mass product and elite product. Mass product is built cost-efficiently (=> quick creation and bugtesting of many PPG/G3 mods), and is adjusted to meet the expectations of AS MANY CUSTOMERS as possible (=> mods that take into account the wishes of all players as much as possible). Due to the above, mass product can have a low price. Elite product, on the other hand, is done with higher costs, and optimized for the few "elite" customers. Improved Anvil is such a mod. This latter statement naturally disturbs and irritates many players, as they feel they're not "elite". Well, elite shouldn't be taken in the negative meaning; its definition is not negative here.

No doubt, to maximize business success, a customer-centric management is a must. But BWL thinks IE modding is not a business in that sense. (But yes, it has costs. E.g. other modding sites use voluntary donations to cover them; BWL uses privileged memberships.) It would be interesting to make an analysis about the most experienced/known players of Improved Anvil (who play Improved Anvil according to Improved Anvil rules). They do not belong to the defintion of "average player" for sure.

Who is the "average player"? The average player (especially from United States and Western Europe where people got used to much caring to get their satisfaction and money) considers that everything that's offered to him/her is a product in a certain sense, and thus it must fit his/her expectations. If it doesn't, it must be adjusted.
IE modding communities such as G3 or PPG use this premise as well, and they consider themselves "providers", "producers". So they know that their popularity and success demands that they adjust themselves and their products to the expectations of the majority of players. This is not true to BWL (okay, to the "wing" of BWL that I represent): we like to follow our hobby fun and concepts of perfectness (yes, everyone has a concept for perfectness) even if the majority of players will not like it and protest against it.

Let me tell an example. It's certainly just an example, not a generalization. How does an average Central European player approach a BG2 mod (e.g. Improved Anvil)? *What's good in it*. He tries to play in a way that is supported and still enjoyable for him, i.e. to find WHAT IS GOOD, even if it needs to adjust his playing style or methods. On the other hand, how does an average Western player approach a BG2 mod? *Nice, nice, but this and this part doesn't meet my expectations*. Unlike the Central European player, he would not adjust his playstyle/methods much, instead he expects the mod to be adjusted. For products in commerical market, this is completely correct (and a great way to get a plus in market competition). In societies with a great tradition of customer-centrism (e.g. USA), people tend to think in this way...

...and that is why they're disappointed when their needs and wishes are not babysitted in Improved Anvil. Hence the lot of "I do not play IA, I do not like IA" posts; it's because they feel neglected as customers, and they protest against it.

Sikret develops and releases Improved Anvil. People are free to play it, or not play it. People are free to gain access to closed betas via the conditions of the author, or they're free to avoid it. People are free to tell their opinion, without expecting that their requests will be implemented or taken into account for 100%. So, no we don't think we tell the "answer", but we express OUR answer, yes. We believe in that answer, and we make our mods according to that. Have you ever seen me, for example, posting in another mod forum on another site, telling: "ah, this is not done in correct way; you must follow MY WAY in any way, because I know the truth". No. But for our OWN mods, we have a strict concept, that is true.

Then a much part of community is greatly misinformed, and that is due to a propaganda (no, it's not a paranoia.), and a propaganda often tries to make people believe quasi-lies by influencing their thinking. For example, I made a post somewhere about how BWL changed and that 90% of the site content and services remained public and free (e.g. complete Dragons's Hoard with hundreds of downloads, all modder resources, many parts of the forums etc.), yet the first step of Pocketplane Group modding community after BWL's reorganization was to update the modlist.pocketplane.net's entry about BWL. We kept asking them to update the Improved Anvil description for ages, but noone seemed to be competent and they were pointing to each other ("I don't maintain the list anymore, it's X person now"). But it's funny that after BWL's reorganization, they updated Pocketplane modlist surprisingly fast:
"[Black Wyrm Lair] A site which requires paid membership to access most of its services beyond basic mod downloads". Beyond basic mod downloads? It's a lie. It is clearly anti-BWL propaganda text because BWL dared to do something that does not exist in the "community" they try to control.

Why do they do this silent propaganda? For several reasons, but mostly because BWL always refused when they (e.g. G3, PPG) tried to force their methods on how to make mods on us. They are good populists, so most people think of BWL as an oddball, as a "dictatorship" etc. I really don't care. BWL doesn't need to meet everyone's (or even the majority's) expectation. If a visitor likes us, he is welcome, and yes we welcome constructive criticism in email (without the guarantee that it will be implemented), we usually reply every email. The main goal of sites like PPG/Spellhold studios etc. is to collect visitors, impress users etc. BWL has much more rigid rules, it won't change its rules just because it would tempt much more visitors. Remember my elite product vs. mass product comparison.

On a side note, it is a nitpicking, but a justified one: I didn't say 8people is lying, I wrote this:

So she might have taken the information as a lie from someone else (i.e. someone else already lied, and the information spread like that).

Yes, I hope it too. I'm not in the IE modding scene so much anymore (practically nothing), so restoring (or using a temporary site) is not my priority in these days. Of course, I do hope the technical support will deal with the issues, for everyone's sake, including those who donated to the site for privileged memberhip. As always, their membership will be automatically extended properly, taking into account the length of the outage.

 

Yeah, and I find your post completely balanced IA-wise. Sikret's approach & conditions are not fine for you, so you don't play Improved Anvil. You don't come to flame Improved Anvil on Gibberlings3, you don't tell how badly designed it is because you can't play it, and so on.

I should have emphasized it more that I didn't intend to generalize that ALL American or all Western/Central Europeans are what I described. I just expressed that people in the developed Western part of the world are much more "embedded" in the concept of customer-centrism (i.e. they consider modders providers and mods as products). Even without realizing it; like an automatic expectation.

By the way:

Concepts of customer-centric management and product types is not *my* world view; it is taken from successful, practically proved and applied international management approaches.

 

Something to keep in mind is that many people who play these games are immature kids who aren't very tactful about expressing their dissatisfaction. Many people who play these games are immature adults who also aren't very tactful about expressing their dissatisfaction. I would consider immaturity to be a much better explanation for many of the emotionally charged rants than I would weakness. I will agree with you that there are a lot of rude people out there.

But that said, my humble suggestion to you, if you hope avoid feeding the "controversy machine," is to be careful to avoid generalizing about "why" people act a particular way. I think you will be able to communicate better with westerners, centralers, and easterers alike by doing this -- and the good points you raise will be less likely to clouded by such generalizations. Rude jerks will continue to be rude jerks... and there's not much that can be done about that.