Underdark and a paladin(spoilers)

Remove all ads!

@cadderly: Don't you think you're exaggerating just a bit? For a paladin to have that kind of attitude would probably cause him to fall. I mean, all that is is saying "If you don't agree with me, you can die." Plus, that isn't even acting on good alignment. It disregards freedom, the right to make moral choices, and, in the case of someone of evil alignment, any possibility of redemption. What was it Gandalf said, "Many people deserve to die. Will you grant it to them?" Or something like that. Furthermore, this attitude disgards any idea of personal choice, or free will. Drizzt and Solaufein are living proof that not all Drow are evil. Are you saying that even the baby Drow are evil and must be killed? What kind of paladin would do something like that? I'll tell you. One who no longer fought for good. One who was himself evil.

On an RP'ing note, I like Bion's suggestion. Not only are there the moral issues involved, the very idea that you could kill the entire city, especially at your likely level, is ridiculous. In fact, if you look at the area map, it's obvious that the cavern Ust Natha is in is huge. It's absurd to think that the tiny city you see on screen is all there is to it. It's supposed to represent a small part of the city.

Of course, in the end, whatever floats your boat. If you enjoy putting the entire city to the sword, knock yourself out. Personally, I enjoy trying to escape before my disguise wears off, the thrill of trying to do that while freeing the slaves, I just think it's more fun. Besides, I could hardly kill the people of my beloved Viconia, could I?

 

The fact remains that many of the books of forgotten realms, not to mention a few characters in the games, act the same way, to use a perfectly good example, the arrogance of anomen, even after he becomes one of the radiant heart guys. I personally have read many of their books and pious is a paladins middle name.

 

I agree with Cadderly. Paladins are often pious to the point of stupidity in that they'll risk life and limb (not to mention the lives and limbs of their fellow party members) in an attempt to smite evil. And as far as they're concerned, they have good on their side so they don't worry about whether what they're doing is right or not.

A paladin in a party, roleplayed properly, would be a real pain in a game like this. He'd kill the shadow thieves (because they're evil) and then kill the vampires (because they're also evil) and then find the game unfinishable as a result.

 

AHAH, someone else who understands the paladins as well as i do, a worthy adversary, yet........THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE.........*chokes on chicken bone*

 

Kill them all and let Helm sort it out eh?

 

Wow...a lot of people sure have misperceptions about paladins :-\

As a guy who regularly PnPs a paladin, here's my view: a good paladin wouldn't just slaughter the entire city. That's something Anomen or a follower of Bane would do. There's a reason why Wisdom is one of the paladin's key stats, y'know. A good paladin would realize that slaughtering people, no matter how Evil, isn't Good. Two wrongs don't make a right. Very basic paladinic philosophy.

Another important bit of paladin thought is the belief in a Greater Good. A smart pally knows he can't smite all the evil in the world, but he can always work for the Greater Good. In BG2, like most RPGs, that'd be saving the world. But, of course, if you can do other Good deeds without jeopordizing the Greater Good, do 'em.

So...what a paladin would do is stay back, let his more diplomatic party members handle the conversation, and keep an eye out for any opportunity to do good on the down-low. Like arming and freeing those slaves, for example.

But, since BG2 really doesn't let you have that option, a paladin in the game should just chill, and learn everything he can about the city and it's inhabitants. If, after the eggs are recovered and the Drow houses are in anarchy, you still think the city's worthy of nothing but righteous death, hey: smite away.

Just remember: a paladin should see good, or at least the potential for it, in everyone. A paladin that starts killing things simply because they belong to an evil race isn't a paladin, he's a bigot with a shiny sword.

Yeah, in case you can't tell, I've played too many pallies. Oh well.

 

Since when would slaughtering an entire city of Loth worshiping drow who: frequently raid the surface; slaughter innocents; keep slaves; deal with demons on a regular basis; torture and enjoy doing it, be an evil act? Toril would certainly be a better place in all respects.

If the PC returned to the Order of the Radiant Heart and announced that they dispatched an entire city of drow, I don't think anyone would complain. If the elimination of evil isn't a good thing then how is a Paladin supposed to accomplish anything? By protecting the weak in an endless cycle? Never reaching out to smite evil? Would you deny a Paladin the right to slay a slumbering ancient red dragon because the red currently isn't doing evil?

It's not as though the drow are defenceless. They are a warrior race and I'm certain the Paladin would only attack those who would raise arms against him (i.e. he wouldn't touch children).

 

A paladin could easily see the drow as victims of their own twisted culture. My paladin would certainly never consider wiping them all out. In fact, she was miffed that there wasn't a way to redeem Sol's ex-girlfriend. (That entire sequence gave me the creeps.) For one thing, it's dumb; risk your life to exterminate an entire city when there are other more important things to do? No.

Let's see, the German government invaded all sorts of countries in WWII and committed genocide. Why, oh why, are there any Germans left in the world? The Allies shoulda wiped 'em all out, I say.

And Anomen is NOT a paladin.

 

Not all Germans are Nazis. Almost every country has gone to war. But that's the real world anyway and we don't have Paladin governments and if their leaders' crimes was attempted genocide how would genocide be a justifiable punishment for all Germans? Not to mention how would you discriminate? Would you eliminate all people who were born in Germany or all German citizens?

Drow _are_ evil. Sure there are some exceptions, but they make up only 0.5% of the entire Drow population.o

 

Solaufein was going to remain behind to see if he could find some "like minded Drow", so he seemed to think that there are redeemable Drow. The only ones who aren't redeemable are the ones with power, who probably make up 0.5% of the population. They're too selfish to give it up. But the slaves are probably eager to find a better life.

 

Every single person in a society cannot be evil. They've got brains and free will. It's simply not possible. Besides, in a society founded so much on power and class, like the Drow, Mystra's Chosen is 100% correct.

If 99.5% of Drow are evil in D&D (which I don't believe), then the mere existence of the Drow is a stupid concept. Their society and government are bad, fine. Nearly every single one of them is evil, just because they belong to a certain race? No.

 

Couple of thoughts:

I've "cleaned" Ust Natha twice. Once was when I was running a character that was an old P&P I had who *hated* drow. She was a chaotic good (with CN tendencies) fighter type who felt that established groups like the Order, although well meaning, sometimes trip over themselves a bit. She didn't buy Solaufein's "conversion" & wiped out the lot after she'd gotten the eggs.

The other was a recent CE cleric who felt they were weak, and didn't deserve to continue. Plus, she was PO'ed at being forced into work by Adalon... who died shortly after the Drow ("they're all dead Adalon. Time to retire").

Lawfuls I have a hard time with; varying, but the Goods as they feel they need to set an example, the Evils as they want a potential power base to return to (set up for later takeover, etc). Otoh, remember Keldorn's comment on the Thieve's Guild, how he'd like to wipe it out? He does say this right after he meets the torturer, probably one of the nastier members, so perhaps he changes his mind.

The chaotics are the ones that go on the offensive when I run them. The system doesn't work, so they take a hand.

On cities, I think 50k people for this kind of time period would be off for a "small" (as I think Ust Natha is described) city. I don't have number on me, but 50k should actually be fairly big. Ust Natha is probably more like 5-10k at most, perhaps down to half or less due to the war. That's still more than a group could/should take on, though.

 

5-10k drow, vs you and your 1-6 character, lets just say that if you won, it would be due to many fireballs and healing potions, not to mention lowering every drow's resistances.

 

yeah, lots of fireballs, healing potions, and them obligingly sending less than a dozen of themselves at you at any one time, letting you take time to heal and rest between sorties, of course.
I still think if the whole city knew where you were, wanted to kill you, and you made your position clear by setting out to systematically wipe them out, they would take you out super easily. It's just that BG2, like most PnP modules before it, was designed so that you don't take on too many enemies at one time, and so that you have a good chance of winning every battle. This often leads to rather absurd situations (ok, I'm taking out this heavily guarded fortress manned by 300 elite troops, good thing they all stay in their rooms so I can take them out 6 at a time, and good thing they don't hear the slaughter taking place the next door over, and good thing they don't bother to even wander around and see what's going on in the rest of the fortress while I have a nice 16 hour rest...)

 

Let loose the pit-fiends! i say! And let hte grounds of hell be littered by the fallen bodies of the Drow. Being A paladin is more than just smiting evil. It is of thinking of consequences of thy actions. And there will be a great sin if one slays the younglings, who are yet to see the beauty , or lack of it, around them.


And thats why, I am not a paladin when I unleashed evil!!
Being a Monk rox!