LDS Baptising dead Jews

Being a Jew and a Romney supporter there was a recent attempt by a journalist to get him to talk about how often he does this. I believe his reponse was not in a long time or some sort of response. I believe this is the reason we are seeing/hearing more about this topic as it is an attempt to make Romney look foolish.

As to how I personally feel, I couldn't give two shakes either. To me it is no different then when people tell me they will pray for a sick person. Your prayers probably aren't going to the God that the sick person worships, but it is thought that counts.

However, I'm sure some Jewish person will eventually sue the LDS for emotional distress. Wait a minute this could be my ticket to easy street....

 

It's called Baptism for the Dead and is done in proxy. Most Mormon youth in areas with temples help. I think I was baptised for thirty or so. It has to do with the Mormons basic belief that without a "proper" baptism (performed by a person with the right 'authority') a person cannot get into the highest degree of glory (Mormon version of heaven).

It goes beyond this, of course, because the Mormons also perform marriages for the dead as well -- it's another requirement to get to heaven. In Mormon belief the person will have the right to accept or deny the ceremony during judgement.

It's very common for a Mormon to do their geneology and turn up an entire grouping of ancestors -- these names are then turned in to the church for baptisms and marriages (called sealings). All noted historic figures have had this done -- from Elvis to Alexander the Great. One notable exception is Martin Van Buren (at least as of 20 years ago) as he was visited by Joseph Smith with a request to help protect the Mormons. Van Buren ignored the request and so his "temple work" was not done. Which is the Mormon version of a whack on the pee-pee.

 

Oh! So this is what happened to Biorn the Viking. (Thanks for that vid btw, Tal)

I don't really mind what happens with my body after my death. Hack it into pieces, stuff it into litterbags and put me aside the railroad, for all I care. I guess I wouldn't object to being baptised after my death, but I would find it disrespectful if they did: I most likely will get a decent funeral and a biblical phrase on my headstone saying something that my soul is safe with God. That should be enough for them not to waste their time. And if they do, I seemingly still have the choice to refuse their offer ("Mormons believe the baptism ritual allows deceased people a way to the afterlife — if they choose to accept it."). I will choose refuse that. Also, my family and friends will most likely choose to hunt them down.

In short: It's futile, but dangerous.

 

I shall post a long form diatribe on this topic when I have access to a real keyboard.

 

Quite simply I think it's wrong, on a couple of levels.

For one, as a person of another faith I believe that they are wrong in their own faith

For another It's bad enough getting Jehovas Witness knocking on my door during life - when I'm dead I get mormons doing it instead?! Can't a deceased get a bit of peace and quiet around here!

The marriages aren't solely mormon territory either, I believe that certain asian traditions also involve marrying two deceased so that they have company in the afterlife. It's also a comfort to both the families and often a rigorous process of still finding the right partner, just without a pulse.

I'd also heard the baptisms are unnecessary - that when a person dies they have the opportunity to stand before their god anyway and accept or reject him. So why do it? Just to rile people up?

 

I share that thought and it's why I don't bother (in this case).

 

Nobody has a right to dictate somebodies religion regardless of whether they're alive or dead. It's disrespectful of their beliefs and the life they chose to live

 

Personally, I don't really care, but I can see why some people would be upset. I think Silvery summed it up nicely for me.

Well, if it ever becomes permanent, LDS has your back! (er, head?)

 

Other religions also have ways of forcing themselves on people. Think about infant baptism (Christians) and infant circumcision (Jews). Religious indoctrination follows later in life on top of the "branding" they received as infants.

What the Mormons are doing does not really count as dictating someone's religion. The assumption made is that once you are dead, you are presented with the reality of whichever the true religion is (you get to see the god(s), your deeds are judged and the whole shebang). Christians think that those that have rejected Christ are in hell regretting their poor decision.

In other words, religious people think that the dead already subscribe to their religion. The only way in which Mormons are different is that they have a way of saving the formerly unbelieving dead from divine punishment.

 

For me it all boils down to one thing: whether the Mormon faith is genuine or not. If the Mormons are right, then the souls they're presuming to save had it all wrong in life and are obviously being done a cosmic kindness here. If the Mormons are wrong, then the act of baptizing the dead is a well-intentioned but ultimately empty, silly gesture that does no one any harm other than insulting the faith, wishes and intelligence of the dead and their families. As an Orthodox Agnostic, I can't say which side has it right with any certainty - though I obviously lean toward the latter.

So they're either heroes, or they're just a pain in the ass. I suppose only God knows for sure.

Full disclosure: I come from a long line of devout Mormons dating back to the founding of the church. My father's side of the family believes whole-heartedly in the practice, and they see it as nothing short of an act of pure love and mercy.

 

My christian* training would seem to suggest that this is not authentic - you've got to get it squared away in life or you're f*cked. No rebate deals or limited time offers or trade-ins or anything like that. But what do I know.

*the one true religion of course ... the rest of you are wrong

 

I'll just add a few things here:

First of all, it isn't a situation like Biorn. The actions of the LDS members performing these baptisms can in no way force anyone anywhere. The insinuation is ignorant, foolish, and ascribes totalitarian characteristics on LDS faithful that are simply not there.

I'll lay out the relevant LDS doctrine in point form:

1: Baptism is an essential ordinance (sacrament, if you come from other Christian traditions) that must be performed here on Earth.

2: Baptisms must be performed by someone having the proper authority from God. Baptisms performed by others may be well intentioned, but they do not do the job.

3: Baptism is a covenant that must be entered into willingly and knowingly. This is why we wait until what is called the "age of accountability" (eight years old) to baptize someone into the church.

4: We do not presume to know what is truly in anyone's heart. The reasons people may have for rejecting the Gospel are theirs and theirs alone. We have no right to judge why someone might not accept the Gospel.

5: In addition, some people never have a chance at all to hear the Gospel. We don't know whether or not they would have accepted it during their lifetimes.

6: Therefore, we perform these baptisms so as to give people who have passed on the opportunity to accept the Gospel. To use the Biorn example (God forgive me for the blasphemy ) a LDS baptism for the dead woould not force him through one door, but rather open a door for Biorn, one which he could either choose to enter, or choose to reject.

7: People who try to make this practice out as odd or unBiblical are either misinformed or untruthful. I refer you to 1 Peter 3:19: "By which also [Christ] went and preached unto the spirits in prison", which states that the gospel was preached to those who died. I also refer you to 1 Corinthians 15:29: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?" That's pretty self-explanatory. When I hear mainstream Christians talk about how "weird" LDS practice is, trying to marginalize or degrade our beliefs and practices, I get right pissed off. Disagree all you want, but don't be ignorant about it.

Doctrinal explanation done. I have participated in baptisms for the dead several times, and let me tell you, it is done extremely respectfully. The Church has made efforts to show respect to those who have deep oppositions to the prectice, but perfection in that matter is not possible, and in any event, no disrespect is intended at all. As others have stated, if we are wrong, there is absolutely no harm done to anyone.

Now why is this a topic right now? We all know why. Romney. People are trying to create a problem where none exists by slinging mud on him and his religion. I understand why they are doing it, and I also understand that when it comes to slinging mud, Romney doesn't have much of a leg to stand on (I personally believe that he'll answer to God for some of his vicious attacks against those he should consider his brethren) but when I see my religion's doctrine twisted, or the intentions of my fellow LDS members misrepresented and slimed, it gets under my skin, and I feel the need to defend what is very near and dear to my heart. I have striven to do so respectfully here.

I don't expect anyone here to necessarily agree with the practice, but what i do want to do is demonstrate that it is not a heinous thing at all, and in particular that it in no way forces anyone to do or be anything that they do not wish to be. The power of choice (referred to in LDS doctrine as "agency") is a vital component in our beliefs, and anything that removes choice from someone is in fact closely associated with the Adversary himself, and not with Christ's teachings.

/end rant

 

This is actually one of the "selling points" for the Mormon church. Your ancestors, who never had the chance to be saved are not f*cked. The child who died before being baptised is not f*cked. Your lot in heaven is determined by your entire life -- not just your life on earth (although this is a contested topic in the Mormon church as well).

 

I'd protest live in absentia, but could care less about after I'm dead ... but then I'll probably be baptised after I'm dead by my family (or they'll let me burn).

Edit: No, BTA -- there is an afterlife for spirits after the body dies. In some cases judgment has already occurred and they've received their "final" reward (which may not be final).