Same party, two run throughs, no no no!

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Hi all,

I've been reading a couple of the character creating guides (coineineagh and way back the JUPP), Excellent. So much I didn't know. This is just a plea, admittedly on the roleplaying side, to dispense with the madness of running the same party through once in normal then again in HOF mode. I know the game is massively replayable, but really!
I play both IWD and IWDII in HOF right off the bat. It's hard at times; for example as early as the battle for Targos it's pretty key for a spellcaster to have invisibility or invisibility sphere. Admittedly, I can't champion what I do as proper role playing, with a fair amount of mulling and level squatting, still it's hard to bear the idea of taking precisely the same party through the game a second time in HOF. Let's say, just a few hours previously the same group already saved the Ten Towns and the North.
Anyway, the guides are still great, and I love the party discussions on the forum. Here's my latest soon-to-be-created party - mainly drow.

Drow (f) Druid, DoBane
Human (m) Monk, PoIlmater
Drow (m) Sorcerer, Wizard (trans)
Drow (m) Bard, Rogue, Wizard (nec)
Duergar (m) Barbarian, fighter, ranger
Drow (f) Cleric (Mask), fighter, barbarian

I know it's an odd group (circus ), but the back story justifies it

 

That party only has one Cleric and a multi-classed one at that, but together with that Druid it shouldn't be a problem.

Should be smooth sailing in Normal mode but your melee dudes WILL have it tough in HOF, unless you protect them with a wall of summons. Other than that, you should be fine.

And welcome to the boards!

 

Thanks. Actually there are three clerics, but none of them is full time
Using the level 40 mod it would be Cleric (Dreadmaster of Bane) 18, and Druid 22 (with the alternate shapeshifting enabled), Monk 30 and Painbearer of Ilmater 10. This is really just for some cleric buffs to the monk, but I don't know if 39/1 would be better, or even have a fighter mix in like 30/5/5 - monk, cleric, fighter. The last one there, a drow, is mainly a cleric of Mask, with fighter and barbarian mix in 18/20/2. I know there'll be a multiclass penalty for adding 2 levels of fighter, hopefully at the end of the game.

I once took a mainly drow party through most of the game, but through level squatting they were all at level 40 by around the Fell Wood. I should have kept going, but I lost interest with no more levels to attain.

 

Well, that's exactly what extensive level-squatting is good for - spoiling the game.

Even if you have the level 40 patch installed, it pays to note that reaching above 27 in party's average level is impossible without squatting and/or respawn exploiting. Getting ANY single character to even 32 requires a whole lot of hoops to hop through.

 

Right. All true.

When HOF was added to IWD that was the only way I played, and it was pretty much the same with IWD2. I like the challenge.

Without level squatting I'd still prefer to start the game in HOF, even if the characters don't get above L27 as you say.

The main point, as at the start of the thread, is that I'm one of those for whom advising a 2nd run-through with the same party, but in HOF, makes no sense.

 

i'm glad you had a look at my guide, and you seem to have thought of some very effective combos already. I'm not a fan of combining monk/cleric, though. Even though their wisdom seems to make it an efficient combo, most of their class advantages are gained by wearing none or heavy armour, respectively. However you equip or use a monk/cleric, you'd be missing out on something.

One of the most important messages that I put in my guide was this:

and so on and so forth.
Keep in mind that many things are dependant on your 'main' class's level progression, like the strength and duration of spells, number of attacks per round, etc.

What I may not have explained well, is that each successive mix-in level sets you back much more than the previous one. A 4 level mix in might appear to be a 10,000XP investment (1000+2000+3000+4000 for the first 4 levels), but look at the perspective from level 10: a pure class will be main class 10 at 55,000XP, but with 4 levels mixed in, the mixed character (lvl6 main class, 4 mixed in lvls) would need another 50,000XP (11k+12k+13k+14k) to catch up.

This is the equivalent of a whole game chapter earlier access to spells, better damage & duration, etc.

Mixing in levels of other classes is useful, but you need to think carefully about what is and isn't useful, add mix-ins very sparingly, and time the additions appropriately.

Long story short: DoB18/Druid22 is dead weight. It will have short-lasting buff spells and impotent offensive ones.

 

With the monk, I can't see the benefit of taking more monk levels past 20 vs taking cleric levels. They both have the same BAB progression, and you don't get any more class abilities. Taking the levels after 20 in the cleric class would net you more spells at the cost of the monk-style self-healing being less effective. Given that you can substitute one spontaneously cast 3rd or 4th level cleric spell for that lost healing, I think it's a fair trade. I can't think of anything else off-hand that is monk-level dependent save for possibly the save DC for your stunning fist.

It's been a while since I played, so I might be remembering wrong.

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One other thought, While I kinda agree with the sentiment of immediately starting again with the same party, that is effectively what I do. I'll finish the game with one party, then play something else like Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter, etc, then when I finish that and come back to IWD2 at least a month later, I'll take the party I just finished through HoW.

 

The advice here is great. I need it spelling out about the effects of mix-ins. To date, I've always configured parties around approximately equal levels of 2 or 3 classes. For example, I've stopped levelling up my bard beyond L11 as there are no more songs beyond that level, and I don't like the spell choices. But I'm starting to think that, say, the druid/cleric 22/18 could be much better as a major druid, very minor cleric and minor fighter; namely: 32/4/4
There are some incidental tips somewhere - maybe in Coineineagh's guide - about selling ammo. That's a great tip. I did that year's ago so as to clean out Targos shops before leaving, and then forgot about it. Given the prevalence of returning weapons, e.g. during Battle Square, troll's cave and so on, I'm now selling all ammo masterwork and above for lots of GP Sometimes I sell all scrolls too - it depends on party composition.
But back to character creation advice etc. - my game's more limited/less effective through not considering mix-ins, stats, alignment (can't bear to play 'evil') and feats more carefully. I still finish the game though, and have done so many times in HOF, having started in HOF mode.
If like Slick, above, I replayed with the same group after a break then I'd probably look to get the special events twice - Lost Followers reward for Paladins, Dreadmaster reward, but basically the cognitive dissonance is too much to run through the same party in normal, then in HOF

 

Doesn't really matter as neither of the options is anywhere near obtainable legitimately. At the very extreme, you could make ONE character reach a bit above 30, at the expense of everyone else ending up at clvl 24-25 or so by playing quite a bit into the story (and/or the complete Normal mode) with a solo character first.

After you get the 20 levels in your main class, there just ain't so many to play with afterwards, no matter how you slice it.

 

Try adding just a single mix-in level instead of those 4 levels. Fighter's Weapon Specialization isn't worth mixing in 4 levels for, and definitely isn't worth matching cleric mix-in levels with. 8 levels mixed in is too much, unless you take the final 6 levels when you are over lvl20 with your Druid.

Incidentally, you can suffice with Druid33/Fighter4/Cleric3 if it's only to avoid leveling penalty.
But ask yourself: What use are the Cleric's spells, when they will only last so short? A full lvl20 cleric will get a Bless casting that lasts 200 rounds, but this one's casting will last 10-40 rounds. It's barely worth casting at all.
My favourite mix-ins for Druid are Monk (must be lawful neutral) for AC bonus from WIS which carries over to the shapeshift forms, and Ranger, for martial weapon proficiency & dual wielding in light or *no* armour (monk synergy there). The greatest advantage of a Dreadmaster cleric is the quest bonus, and you can get it with just 1 level mixed in.

 

That's true, but 'legitimately' is hard to say with a straight face right? Powergamers like to take the same party on two run-throughs, once in normal, and then the self-same party in HOF. Roleplayers might find it less of a mental effort to imagine the party starting in HOF, level squatting and completing the game that way. Just different ways to play. For me the idea of saving the North twice with the same party is just wrong

An alternative might be to just see how far the group can get starting in HOF without level squatting. I tried it, and seem to remember getting stuck at the Shaengarne Bridge - probably due to an absence of invisibility sphere. Soloing with a sorcerer for a while would fix that and satisfy roleplaying by adding other characters later, such as after saving the pallisade. Anyway, could be fun to see how far a full party gets starting out in HOF and levelling up consistently

[You deleted the closing /QUOTE tag; I fixed it for you. -Tal]

 

Nope, roleplayers definitely will NOT find level squatting acceptable at any degree. Heck, I'm a powergamer and STILL won't acknowledge any feats achieved through it as anything but exploiting an obvious coding mishap.

But whatever floats your boat, as they say.

 

I was more of a fan of the ease of use mod granting xp on each kill, even if it was a measly 1 xp for a goblin by a level 20 mage. If you level-squat too much, it can lead to your party getting steamrolled at the wrong time because you haven't leveled the party yet, waiting for that golden moment.

 

@Sir Rechet - we'll just have to differ on what roleplayers find acceptable. Who knows, unless we have a poll. To be fair SlickRCBD's idea makes sense - playing the same party twice but with a gap.

Anyhow, I also like the Ease-of-Use mod and the 'always get some xp' per kill option. That seemed to break down in the current run-through so I put Coineineagh's 'moncrate' file (in IWD II for dummies download) in the override folder. Now killing a white dragon earned me 51xp - whoopee! Fortunately quest xp is untouched so characters are still going up - should be level 40 (illegitimately lol) by the beginning of ch. 6

 

Yeah, EoU's file had a minumum of 100XP per opponent, which meant you gained far too many levels for tackling goblins. That dragon was simply a lot lower level than you, so my moncrate gave you a more level appropriate reward.

No mathematical formula went into scaling the XP for enemy level, but if you open the file with wordpad, you'll find that it's fairly well distributed. I actually tried to make the XP rewards multiples of 6, with 6XP being the lowest reward received. But in practice, the game always gave a bit more. I never got less than 7XP.