Templates

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Invoker,

Yes, you receive more damage if you go below the 0. It works in the same way as with positive resistances. The damage applied by the game is calculated by percent, so if you have 50% resistance to fire you receive half damage, if you have -50% you receive 1 and half damage..

TGM as not swayed me, I've only found some of his ideas well concepted. The Skeleton Warrior is already revisited, and the templates are not the ultimate ones. I must try them, then I will decide what to add or leave. I'm trying to do templates that will be Role playable and not templates for power gamers, however, this should be clear.

I think that I will lower a bit the costs, 150.000 gp are a lot, but, as I said, I will try to do a game from the beginning and see how much money I can collect, than I will base all on that.

Sincerely,
Lavir.

 

I still think the cost is too high,I mean, magic items and gold. With the gold I have been able to get in SoA without cheating or exploiting the game is 350000, and then I have most of the good magic items in the ending of the game.
It sounds like most of the templates are for one-time battles and then rest, and a game like that would be awfully slow, you meet a lot of enemies all the time and therefore keeping the magic items sounds more beneficially to me in the long run.

 

Well,

Thank you for your comments. In effect I think I had a bit exagerated with requirements. Now there is need of less item to apply a template and the items needed are in conformity to the change, i.e. for example the Red Dragon needs the Robe of Fire resistance and the Ring of Fire resistance, but the template gives immunity to fire, so the items are well employed.

I've also lowered the prices a bit. Now to me all seems well balanced.

Sincerely,
Lavir

 

These templates seem like a very interesting way to spice up the game!!

OK, here is my take on them: First of all, I think that *LOSING* equipment which is *UNIQUE* in the game (like the Staff of the Magi or the Ring of Gaxx) is a sore blow. You work hard for THOSE rewards, just as you will have to work for your Templates. If you really want to do this, I recommend using items which ARE replaceable (Robe of Fire Resistance, for example. Or Wand of Fire).

I also I really don't like the idea of an armor restriction for any class; just because you're a half-celestial, that doesn't mean that you can't shoot stuff (arrows, or bullets) at people.

Dark Knights: make them vulnerable to "Turn Undead". Evil clerics can turn Paladins, after all.

Half-Celestials: give them the "charm air elemental" ability. They are air elementals, you said. If you take away their equipment restrictions and the exorbitant equipment price in upgrading to that template, then add a -50% earth elemental resistance; earth is air's opposite element. You could do the same thing for the half-fiends (give them Charm Fire Elemental; does that exist?) and a -50% water resistance.

Make a battle script where Celestials must attack evil enemies first (like the Wizard Slayer attacking mages first), and one for Fiends attacking good opponents, if you can.

Make it impossible for Evil templates to travel with good party members, and for Good templates to travel with evil members. Neutral should be OK.

I believe that there's actually a shortage of good templates, with only the Half-Celestial being a "good" kit. I recomment a Silver half-dragon kit, where the dragon has ice elemental powers and ice resistance, with a hefty penalty to fire and acid resistance.

As a matter of fact, although I *do* believe in a dragon (or half-dragon) being vulnerable to their opposite element, the high disadvantages that you enforce are unreasonable and un-roleplaying, even if they do balance the combat. Furthermore, I believe that the dragon form *should* get a penalty to speed (-3 or so) and a penalty to dexterity (no more than -1; they're large, but still *reasonably* agile).

I really love the idea of the half-fiends and half-celestials being attacked by forces from their opposite sphere.

Those were my comments, in random order; keep up the good work!!

 

Actually I thought losing the unique equipment and the horde of gold was a fine idea. That stuff makes you overpowered as is, so its a decent tradeoff, especially with really poorly concieved items like the Staff of the Magi, and the ring of Gaxx, I think those particular items (along with a certain katana and a certain hammer) are rediculous.

Good stuff Lavir!

 

Hi there people.

About the loss of unique items:
Well, nothing comes without a price. And the price should be as great as the reward, or greater. And never CHEAP. Lokken, if you still believe, that a Staff of Magi plus a Ring of Gaxx are the better choice to you, well, no one said, you MUST use the template. But if you still do, you MUST sacrifice for it. But I believe you will win on the trade eventually by choosing a Lich. Perhaps there will be situations, where you will have to give up things, and perhaps you won't be able to buy as much equipment, but man! Do not want everything. And I think if the unique items would be replaced with some worthless stuff, that would make this unbalanced.
Look, see this: I'm not trying to steal your fun, I just want these templates to FIT IN THE GAME and do not turn this template-thing a onesided trdae, where your only option is winning. No, there have to be sacrifices.
Just as the restrictions. Sometimes there MUST be something, that could give that template a negative side as well. For example a Fiend is a great fighter with many VERY powerful abilities, so there must be some disadvantage as well - the armor restriction, for example. The BG series and AD&D already uses this method of balance. Look at the Kensai! An outstanding fighter - but got its prize as well by the restrictions. That is the way it is and it should be.

Anyway, about the Improved Dragons: I absolutely agree with Lavir - the Dragons are underpowered in the game. I'm really looking forward the new battles against them Time to face some challenge

TGM

 

Sure, and when I kill that Half-Fiend you will lose it for good along with all the stuff you sacrificed. And as you can see, trying to mix 3nd ed and 2nd ed turns out rather messy in the end.

And requirements for a lot of those things outrules ToB players to have any fun of the templates if they don't start over (unless of course they followed a walkthrough to get all unique and magical items in SoA).

I don't mind sacrificing something that I don't really really need, but I think many things are just swapping instead of boosting, and then the stuff you pay for it, is just out of the window.

The avarage player who doesn't know the entire game inside out, will most likely turn out in the end with something closer to 80K gold instead of the mass 350K gold I got from planning the selling of every item I found(not that I picked everything up anyway), and that would be at the end of the game.

[This message has been edited by Lokken (edited September 27, 2001).]

 

First of all, these Templates aren't really ment to be used in ToB. Just look at their abilities! They receive all of them right before finishing SoA and so there isn't much improvement in the expansion. That should need another patch from Lavir in the future. I originally advised abilities that could only gained at higher levels(for more ToB compatibility) but things are fair this way as well.
Yes, there could be situations where you will definetely lose on the transformation, because of the outrageous requirements, but I still think that what you get by using a template is more efficient and interesting than running around in powerful items. If you would need items that are useless any other way (Staff +2 instead of Staff of the Magi, Girdle of Bluntness instead of Girdle of Inertial Barrier)it would only make the Templates way too strong, because you could still obtain those items and wear them.
Lokken, you say that the average player won't get that much gold at all. Well, if it is so, than this means that he/she hadn't searched the game through looking for quests, or maybe haven't completed them. If that's the case, they WON'T get the chance to use the stronger templates, but they will still be able to obtain the lesser ones. And they are fun too, so I do not see the problem you keep talking about.

But once again, tell me, which is the item, that you wouldn't sacrifice for these? Which is that situation that couldn't be handled without them? Tell your thoughts to Lavir, and then you will manage to solve the problem, I'm sure.

 

Dear Forum,

Above all thank you truly for all your impression/critics about the templates, I really appreciate them.

For what I've seen there are two different way to apply the templates. So I ask you a question, and I want that you will reply after having decided what is best for you, so I will finally have a sure direction to follow. Do you think that is better to have templates that could be applied as kits, i.e. you could change in the form of the template having only some gold, but the same templates have many advantages but also many disavantages since they are only different classes, or you prefer to have templates that could be applied to your characters as enanchements to them, that you will need certain items to apply them and battle to obtain them, but when you have applied them it is like have a powerful item (as for Cromwell forge to make the things clearer)? Reply to this question and I will have a better idea of what you prefer. I personally would like to follow the second route, but it is only my point of view.

For good/evil templates: it is true that many of these templates are evil, but only two of them require the character to be evil to be applied, the others change automatically the alignment, so they could be used to all characters. The Dragons, then, are neither evil nor good, the alignment of the character appling the template determines it.

Advantages/Disavantages: this will change accordingly to what will be the reply to my precedent question. If you could apply a template with only some gold and whenever you want it is obvious that all these templates will be as kits, i.e. they could be applied whenever you want but they will also have many disavantages pertaining to the particular template. If instead the templates will be as powerful artifacts to apply to the character to make him/her a sort of Guardian or something as this, it is ovious that the disavantages will be much lower, since you will have to work hard to obtain the change. So all depends on the route that is followed.

Sincerely,
Lavir

 

Personally I prefer your idea - as powerful 'artifacts' you must earn to get. There's already enough kits out there.

But I would like to see it more quest based rather than giving up gold/items. Like the existing artifacts in the game... go beat up group X and get part A, go beat up group Y
and get part B, etc. Parts A and B are generally useless by themselves, only when put together do they give a powerful item.

Sacrificing some items is ok as long as you are getting something *related* in return, e.g. for putting together the Crom Faeyr you give up two strength enhancing items, but in return you get an even more powerful strength enhancer.

Anyway, I think it's great what you've done already. Good work.

 

I completely agree with Mirkwood. Especially about the related items give you related whatever

TGM, you mistook my point of ToB completely. I stated that before in this topic that all abilities should be obtainable within SoA limits, because then SoA people wouldn't mind. Though if ToB players would like the templates, they wouldn't have to start all over playing SoA(ZzZzZzzzz) again, but add the templates as they see fit if there wasn't so many weird items requirements.

My idea for red dragon template requirements would be something like: Gold (to compensate for the various increadients you might use, why do you think it cost gold after all? to melt into what?) and something explicit, like red dragon scales(the red dragon armor would do as well I guess) to magically insert on your body, and perhaps a week for the template to take affect.

 

Dear Forum,

I had already planned to do some sort of new quests to obtain the items, but I have only a problem. It is related with the dialog file, the well known (I think) dialok.tlk. As you probably know, all the references to strings in the game are stored in that file, and all the strings are recorded as a number that identifies them. The problem is this: since to make new enemies to battle to obtain new items it is clear that I cannot use only the strings already present in the game, elsewhere it will be an ugly thing. I cannot make new challenges without dialog either, it will be really stupid; try to imagine new monsters appearing in an area because you have a certain item and they don't say nothing and attack you without explanations, bleah! So, as you see, I must add new strings for the new dialogs.

For SoA it is not a problem, since I could just add the new strings in my own file and post it with the templates, but for ToB there is the problem that I don't have yet the expansion and I don't know when I will have it since I've ordered it from Amazon and almost always it takes about a month to deliver here where I am.

So I ask you a favor: if you could send to me the dialog.tlk of the expansion pack, so that I can add the new strings also to it, and the templates will be compatible with ToB.

My e-mail is lavir@supereva.it. If someone has the expansion pack please send the file "dialog.tlk" (findable in the directory where you installed BGII) to the adress above. Please archive the file because elsewhere it is too large.

Thank you for your help.

Sincerely,
Lavir

 

Sure thing, it'll be on it's way

 

Just one q about tamplates:

Is it possible to make some sort of hunters spawn in game, as you change into one of chosen templates (since these won't be used as kit, but enchantment) ?
This means that if you pick a Vamp template, game produces 2-3 really though vampire-hunters that come after you (plus additional ppl to keep your party busy), or a dragon, than you get a dragon-slayers attack you short after you use template. These enemies would be though, and ready for you, going for your weaknesses, as it should be (vamp hunters would have nasty "kill unded" weaponry, lich-hunters would have magic resistance etc).
I know that this would prolly make you work even harder, but it's just an idea, to make it even more balanced, and spicier.

Good work with these templates btw. Really good work.

 

I like the idea of adding new quests to the game; for some reason, I enjoy the complexity they add more than the actual main storyline. Maybe upon beginning chapter two, a mysterious character should come and tell you that you need more power to defeat Irenicus, and give you hints on how to acquire the template? And upon completion of the quest and upon acquiring several otherwise useless items, you can go to Lamia in the graveyard district, and instead of buying the change components from her, you have them already, and only need purchase the change. I think that you should trade unique items for the template, OK, but not the very BEST in the game (I love shield of harmony). Try trading, oh.... the Dragon Scale Shield for the dragon change, for example, if you really must use an in-game item.

 

Wow, people sure do love their trinkets.

After the first time I played SoA I hated those overpowered items... I never liked the idea that my high level character was only kicking ass because he had the celestial fury, or the ring of gaxx. When I started reading about these templates I liked the idea of the character be able to dish out the damage himself, rather than depending on those super powered trinkets.

Also a templated character using said trinkets, goes back to "boring undefeatable way over the top" range again. A lich character who's allowed to keep the staff of the magi and the ring of gaxx?!

In regard to the 'average' player not being able to get the 150,000+ gold to use the templates properly, I'd argue that the 'average' user isn't going to USE the templates, so no problem there. In all likelyhood the people that will use the templates are people (like me) who are bored of the game, and have finished it before.

I love the idea that someone is actually reconstructing Kangaxx for a reason - to get his ring for their transformation, or the twisted rune quest. Those are two of the stupidest quests in the game, they don't fit in, and they give you two of the most disproportionately powered items in the game.

Yes! Eat up the magic items and the gold! After your transformation, you won't need them!

 

Yes! You don't need them, so you give them to someone else! I want my Shield of Harmony...!!! *wails* But I agree... Of all the items, the Ring of Gaxx *is* overpowered. Feel free to eat up that one.

 

Okay, Lavir, here's the scoop. BGII is the only PC game I own. I play it at work, where I have very little else to do. I've finished it at least a dozen times. I tried to start a new game today with a new kit, and I was bored before I even got out of my cage.

Pleeeaaaaaasssseee hurry.

 

Now then, I must say, I completely agree with ArtEChoke on this matter about the unique items. Leaving those items in-game would allow to give them to the template, wich wouldn't be what these are ment for. For every template there MUST be at least one or two unique item(s) that would make the player cry - just like that Shield of Harmony, right? I think everybody will survive the loss of these, nad perhaps the game could be more interested without them. Simply there ARE items, that are a "bit" powerful. How about that damn Cloak of mirroring? God, how I hate that one! You can disable almost every magic-user opponent with that simle cloak geez. About the Ring of Gaxx: it isn't that much powerful like the S.of the M. Now that is a bunch of kickass with that Spelltrap. I tried out to give it to Edwin, and by using that spell (S.T.) I killed Jon without even losing a single HP!...now that is rubbish.

TGM

 

This is in regards to Lavir's post on the new requirements and specifics of the templates. There's one thing that really caught my attention in it; "Lamia's store in the graveyard district" Now, have I missed something in the game or is that store included in the Template add-on download ?

Anyway, I can't wait for this to be completed and available, and as Extremist said; " Lavir - YOU RULE!!! "