Need help making a group

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Hello, I'll start a IWD2 game soon and I'd appreciate some help with the different rules (in comparison to IWD).

I'm thinking of having this group:

LG Aasimar Paladin
CG Human Barbarian
NG Elf Druid
CG Elf Priest
CG Human Rogue1/Mage
NG Human Sorcerer

So, what I'm in doubt is this:

1) Is it worth having a multiclass paladin, for example a Fighter4/Paladin or a Paladin4/Priest of Ilmater? I heard that at level 4 I'll get interesting skills in these classes.

2) If I multiclass my paladin into a priest, will the barbarian be a good tank? Or is it better to have a fighter/paladin or a paladin only to help him?

3) At what level will my characters be near the end of the game? I see some guides talking about level 30 characters, but I also heard that I'll only get to around 16. What is right?

4) Can elf priests/druids use bows? I hate slings.

Thanks for the help

 

1) Unfortunately, in IWD2 having a single-class paladin isn't especially useful. A 2-level dip into paladin is the most common build advice. An Aasimar paladin 2/PoI X is a solid build. At level 4, fighters gain access to weapon specialization and the maximized attacks feat. In my opinion, neither of those is a reason to take 4 levels of fighter. With the spells clerics have in IWD2 they can be much better "fighters" than the classes with full Base Attack Bonus. In addition, paladins gain access to spells at level 4, but your caster level will take a hit (because of the way the game calculates it, your paladin caster level will always be pal levels -3).

2) Barbarians are good tanks. But your paladin/cleric will be a tank itself (heavy armor, 3/4 BAB, good buffing spells).

3) This is a very complex question. If you're playing normally through non-HOF mode, finishing at level 18 or under is likely. There are ways people work around this (such as using "mules", characters that never level up). In HOF you can get to a much higher level, but the enemies are much more difficult.

4) In this game, any character can use (almost) any weapon. They just might need to spend feats in proficiency with the weapon. But in this case, all elves gain automatic proficiency in bows.

 

Thanks for your reply, Acrux.

I'll follow your advice and make e a paladin2/PoI X. And instead of a priest I'll have a dual wielding warrior/scout. What would be the best class(es) for this character? Ranger1/Fighter X? I want him as a melee fighter, the "dex-based fighter" as I saw in a guide (ambidexterity, two weapon fight, expertise and weapon finesse feats). Also with hide and move silently skills.

 

Any combination of ranger, rogue, and fighter would make a good warrior/scout. If you're only going to be investing in the hide and move silently skills, a pure fighter or pure ranger is probably okay. Since you'll need a minimum of 13 INT for expertise, that will give you an extra skill point each level.

If you do want to multi-class, there are lots of options. Ranger will get ambidexterity for free (or is it two-weapon fighting?) at level 1, plus favored enemy. If you're not interested in advancing any further in ranger, you could go straight fighter from that point on.

Alternatively, you could create a ranger/rogue hybrid. The benefit there is more skill points and the ability to sneak attack when hidden. (In this case, I'd take rogue at first level for the multiplied skill points, and then any combination of ranger or rogue you want).

 

Sneak attack is interesting. I'll check how many feats I need and see if a ranger/rogue is ok. If not, I'll go with ranger1/fighter X. Thanks.

Edit: if I had a triple class rogue/ranger/fighter, when would I receive extra feats, at character levels 3, 6, ... or each time a class reached level 3, 6, ...?

I'd end up with a ranger3/fighter4/rogue X. Ranger 3 to avoid a -20% xp penalty, fighter 4 to specialise in small blades and rogue X to improve sneak attack.

For feats I'd like to have:

-ambidexterity and two weapon (for free with the ranger):
-Weapon finesse
-Expertise
-Power attack
-Dodge
-Weapon specialization in small blades

I know the fighter gets more feats, but I don't understand when I'd get them multiclassing. I'm trying to understand at what character level I'd have all those feats above.

 

A ranger/rogue hybrid works very well, as does a barbarian/cleric (half-orc of course). I also enjoyed having a monk.

 

I've decided to have a Rogue/Fighter, to get more feats and the sneak attack.

 

You shouldn't. In IWD2, slings are THE best ranged weapon all-around. Best range (tied with box/xbow), ammo is plentiful in drops, bludgeoning damage is the least resisted damage type of them all AND you get bonus to damage from strength, although it doesn't say so on the lying character screen. A select few throwing axes can be better at the hands of someone specifically built around using those, but you're still losing on range at the very least.

 

That's a huge difference. Good to know, I guess I'll have slings then.

 

I've noticed that a lot of things, particularly in the ice temple that are vulnerable to blunt damage but have resistance to arrows and bolts have something like 5 damage resistance to bullets from a sling. They tend to resist the magic bullets being dropped as well, even the +2 bullets fired from a +1 or (rarely) +2 sling.
Apparently sling bullets count as both blunt and missile, while arrows count as both piercing and missile, and there can be separate damage resistance to blunt, piercing and missile.

Other times things that take extra damage from blunt damage only take normal damage from a sling with no bonus.

That said, it seems to me and I haven't done the exact math, that long bows do more damage to things without resistance than any other missile weapon. They all seem to have the mighty component in the game, like composite long bows in BG. It's just the way things seem to me, particularly in the first part of the Shangarn Bridge section when you are fighting Torak's horde and they are hiding behind those barrels as you open the path.
If I sic each character on a different target, the ones with longbows will kill their orc first, even if I have them target an warrior while the other characters go for the shamans and archers (though typically I'll do the opposite and have the bowmen target the archers and shamans while the mages with the crossbows target the helpless warriors).

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Oh, and the ones with the longbows typically kill things faster than the same character with a shortbow.

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One thing to consider, if you got ranger4 instead of ranger3, you get access to a few low-level druid spells. It might or might not be worth the extra level.

 

That's something to consider too, SlickRCBD.

Do I lose the skill points I get when I level up if I reduce intelligence below 10?

Is it ok to have only one character with high charisma and dump it for everyone else? And does it make any difference if I dump it to 6 or to 4?

Thanks everyone for the help. I'm still finishing BG:EE, so I still have a day or two to plan my IWD2 party.

 

Yes, you will lose -1 bonus point per 2 ability points under 10. So, -5 bonus for 1, -4 bonus for 2-3, -3 bonus for 4-5, -2 bonus for 6-7, and -1 bonus for 8-9.

If your character isn't a Bard, Paladin, or Sorcerer and you don't plan on having them be the "face" of the team, then they won't need any Charisma. So dropping it to the lowest won't hurt anything.

 

I thought Charisma influenced a cleric's turning ability too. Not that turning undead is as important in this game as it is in IWD1. There are only a few parts of the game where it is useful. It's about as useful as turning was in BG1. Handy bonus, but not game-breaking. Unlike in BG2 where if your cleric was a high enough level, he could handle practically the entire Shade Lord quest in the Umber Hills by herself (Viconia or Amnoen, Aerie due to her multiclassing is usually too low a level) just by turning.

 

I'd advise a Pal1/ClericX. Taking 2 levels of Paladin is not worth it. Just cast a spell when you face frightening foes for full protection, rather than a saving throw bonus at the cost of a level.

Single class units have their Base Attack Bonus maximized, and cast spells with better hit die and duration. There can be tremendous advantages to mixing in a single class, provided you choose the right combo and time it right.
The mathematics of mixin in classes can be deceptive: Each class you mixed in gives you a cumulative penalty as you become higher level.

Let's say you mixed in 1 class at level 2: You may think it's no big deal, because it was only 2000XP worth of delay. But by the time you are level 9Main/1Mix-in, it will cost you 11000XP to reach your 11th level, and be at roughly the same competence in fighting/casting as a single class character would. At your 15th level, this delay extends to 16000XP. For sure, a single class character would have new spell levels ready for a whole dungeon's worth of gameplay, while your Mix-in unit is still waiting for them.

That being said, the bonuses from mixing in the right class at the right time are often worth this delay. But when you're talking about mixing in 2 levels of another class, realize that you're more than doubling this delay: at level 10, it's not 11000 but 23000XP you'll need to catch up. at level 15, it's not 16000 but 33000XP you have to gain for your main class to be on par with a single class.

Still, in the guide I wrote, I still advocate mixing in 2 classes at the right time, because it can be worth it. But you need to really think carefully about what you mix in. If you mix in 2 levels, it better be 2 *different* classes, to make the bonuses worth the delay.

When we're talking about 4 Fighter levels mixed in, the delay is too much to handle. 50000XP at level 10 (11000 + 12000 + 13000 + 14000 to become Main class 10 / Mix-in 4). 70000XP at level 15! The benefits of Weapon Specialization, Maximized Attacks and 3 extra feats are not worth the price you will pay at the start.

The only instance I can think of when Fighter4 mix in is beneficial, is for a very high level Cleric. I'm talking about caster level 19+, after you have acquired level 9 spells already. This level will only happen if you replay the game in Heart of Fury mode. Clerics have mostly healing, buffing and no-saving-throw debuff spells in their repertoire. For Clerics, it may be more beneficial to invest in Fighter levels *at high level*.

A 1-level mix in of Fighter brings a free feat and proficiency in shields, heavy armour and martial weapons, which can be worth it for a caster. You can always turn a 1-level mix in into 4 levels later on, if it serves your purposes.

 

I agree that mixing in levels with spellcasters is rarely worth it, but I've found that mixing in a rogue's sneak attack with a monk or ranger can be well worth it. Monks & Rangers get hide and move silently as class skills.
Actually, A rogue/ranger is one combo where getting those 10 levels of rogue to get those rogue-only bonus feats can be worthwhile.
The rangers spells aren't really worth it, but if you want a character to sneak attack with a high BAB, ranger is an excellent choice since you can continue to max out your hide and move silently. The free two-weapon fighting feats is something else to consider.
Monks shouldn't really mix more than one rogue level until they get to monk level 20, then you're actually better off taking only rogue levels or start taking Cleric levels.
A monk20/rogue5/fighter5 would be even better if you could specialize in unarmed strike.
On the other hand, a Monk20/Cleric10 isn't a bad choice either where you stay pure until level 20, then start taking cleric levels.
Notice that I say to keep the monk pure or only one rogue level until monk level 20.

I'm not convinced taking fighter4 is a bad choice to mix with other warrior types or with a rogue (but not a bard). About the only one it might not be such a hot choice for is a barbarian until he gets to level 20, then mixing in 4 fighter levels can be worth it. Tireless rage is valuable.

 

@coineineagh I changed the group from the my first post and I have to agree with what you are saying. There is a big difference in spell (level and number) between my paladin2/cleric and the druid. Also between the wizard and the rogue2/wizard.

I like the different rules that allow us to create new multiclass characters, but it seems they actually encourage singleclass.

I see now that I have more skill points that I needed. A rogue/fighter and a rogue/wizard can easily maximize the rogue skills. Even the barbarian has more than enough, maybe that's the reason everyone dump a barbarian's intelligence...

BTW, will I have a problem if I play another game in heart of fury with this group (after I finish the game once)? Or is it too much of a challenge?

 

it's nice to know it helps you. The leveling system's mathematics aren't easy to explain without quoting examples at length, like I did. I'm glad my words were not wasted effort.

One aspect I neglected to mention before, is the diminishing returns of kills. The experience tables of the game give different rewards for the same enemy kills depending on your party level, to the point that very low level opponents grant 0 XP. Leveling speed is usually slow due to this, if you do all quests and get all the XP you can find. Being slightly over the average level will reduce your gains, slowing you down. On the other hand, if you skip encounters and run behind in levels, the XP rewards will increase to allow you to catch up a little more easily.

Your 6 man party was already decent, and now you have advanced knowledge of the leveling system (took me a long time to understand myself). You'll do fine moving the party on to Heart of Fury.