Heart of Fury Stats?

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Anyone happen to know exactly what Heart of Fury does to the monster stats?

On normal, the enemies (at least the humanoids..) seem to be calculated the same way your characters are, with all benefits from feats, equipment, attributes, etc being included in determining their effectiveness. There are only a few ways I've found the game 'bending the rules' for the enemy (some of which are appearantly bugs..) and usually it's not even in the enemy's favor.

On Heart of Fury, though, there doesn't seem to be any correlation to the monsters base-stats.. Where a Slayer Knight in "Normal" would have 126 hit points + (4 (Constitution Bonus) * 19 (Level)) = 202, the same Slayer Knight in Heart of Fury will have 845 hit points.. Which isn't evenly divisible using that formula layout, even if you change most of the values.

For the Slayer Knights in particular, I've noticed only a few recognizable patterns that seem to make sense, but they don't even necessarily apply to other monsters..

(You can skip this part if you want. It's only here for brainstorming information.)

1) All saves are increased by +15. However, Slayer Knights are technically 'Paladins of Helm', and, like paladins, they also recieve their charisma modifier to their saving throws. They (most of them, at least) naturally have a +2 charisma modifier, and unless the game doesn't impose a cap of 40 on monster attributes, this would still leave us in excess of +2.. So this +15 bonus isn't likely from Charisma... and if Charisma isn't being raised to 40, it wouldn't make much sense for all their other attributes to be raised to 40.. If all attributes *were* raised to 40, that would give us +30 to all saves.. Which isn't happening. (Note, my tests have pointedly excluded the fighter classed slayer knights for the sake of complexity. I am aware that they exist.)

2) Armor class doesn't change. This suggests that they don't get a bonus to their 'base ac'. However, if the game did try to give the Slayer Knights an AC boost via Dexterity, it wouldn't work, as their equipped armor is +7 Armor, with a Max Dex Bonus of 0. (Not None. +0.)

3) Challenge Rating is doubled.. Or increased by 10. One or the other, but the result is the same.

4) Attacks per round remain the same. This is.. interesting, because unlike players, NPCs attacks per round are calculated seporately from their base attack bonus.. Which is seemingly a value of it's own. Instead, the enemy is given a number of attacks per round based on a comparison to what it's base attack bonus *should* be after levels are counted, and then it's first attack is set to it's seporate 'base' attack bonus variable, and each successive attack recieves the appropriate -5.. and on that note.

5) The Slayer Knights I was testing all recieved a straight +20 to their attack bonus from 32/27/22/17 & 31/26/21/16, to 52/47/42/37 & 51/46/41/36.

6) Enemy damage is approximately 300%. I'm not sure if this is *2 from "Insane", and an additional *1.5 for "Heart of Fury", or if that is just for show.. I could probably try tampering with the .ini to see if I could cheat and turn off "Insane" while playing on Heart of Fury. Haven't tried that yet.. There is definitely some kind of *2 multiplication going on behind the dice rolls, though, as every single swing I observed from these knights was divisible by 2. 38, 40, 42, 44, 46, 48, 50, 52, 54, 56, 58, 60, 62.. Crits for 76, 88, 90, 92, 94, 96, 98, 100, 104, 108, 112, 124, etc.
Normally their damage is 12-22 and 14-24 with some kind of -1 penalty reducing the damage range to 11-23 between them.. HoF their damage was 38-56 and 42-62.

7) The Greatsword of the Soulless +5 that they wield (00CWSKX1) is only considered a +2 weapon when calculating attack rolls. This is not the same one they drop apon death. (00SWDT93). Other weapons work appropriately.

8) Enemies, for whatever reason, recieve a mysterious 9 attack bonus when swinging at me, and things associated with me.

Example: Charmed enemy with 14 Base Attack Bonus. -5 Strength, Normal weapon, no proficiency attacks a slayer knight: (14, -5, -4 = 5.)
Slayer Knight with 15 Base Attack Bonus. +5 Strength, +2 Magic Weapon, +1 Weapon Focus attacks my charmed minion: (15, +5, +2, +1 = 23)
Charm breaks, charmed minion attacks me with a an attack bonus of 14. Slayer Knight attacks me with a bonus of 32.


What is really weirding me out and inspiring me to throw my hands up, though, is that I made a copy of 67SkXvm.cre and renamed it 63KntXvm.cre, changed their primary color to blue and green so I could tell them apart, stuck it in my over-ride folder to run some tests.. 63KntXvm, in spite of being the exact same .cre file as 67SkXvm, is receving a -1 attack penalty, and a -6 damage penalty difference from 67SkXvm.. Earlier, I was experiencing identical monsters having an excess of 200 hit points more\less than the one standing right next to them.. Even though they both were the same level, with the same challenge rating, granting the same experience apon death, dropping the same treasure, etc, etc.. It's as if the game decided people wearing green shirts get a -6 on damage rolls. =P

So, does anyone have *any* idea what the game is doing to the .cre files to determine their stats? Is there any blueprint in the .2da files, or is it hard-coded in the .exe? Are the bonuses uniform in any-way between monsters in different chapters? Is it some formula based on challenge rating, or level, or what?

*suddenly misses TeamBG..*

 

Well unless Jukka decides to drop by again, I dont think you really are going to get any answers. Try out the JUPP. You might find a few pointers.

The formula for HP I remember was HP(HoF) = HP(Normal) * 3 + 80.
202*3+80 = 686 != 845. If you increase the multiple to 4 and treat the HP from Con bonus normally, we might get your answer.

Everyone gets a flat +26 to BAB iirc.
Some similar number for saves I presume.
The 2 multiplyer you saw comes from insane mode. It multiplies all enemy rolls by two.

The rest. Well, I haven't ever thought about it and have no ideas about.

 

I do know that the goblins have 150-155 hp. That was enough to tell me it was going to be tough, and I didn't bother with any more counting. Your figures seem reasonable.

 

The HP formula does help some. I had already figured there was a *3 multiplier, and I had started applying variations to the consitution bonus, but I always came up short.. That the enemies recieve a flat +80, -- or any flat bonuses at all independant of other modifier, might save me some time cross referencing between multiple enemies.

I've found that the Slayer Knights do get a +6 to their Dexterity attribute, which results in a +6 modifier (up from +3) - This, however, does not show up on their armor class because, as suspected, their Armor doesn't allow a Dex bonus.

This was throwing off my estimates because, when lowering their attributes all down to 1, and playing on HoF to see the stat difference, their Dexterity (and probably other stats) was being pushed up by 6.

If their other attributes are also being increased by 6, that would give them a +7 constitution modifier instead of a +4. Which would change it to:

(126 * 3) + ((7 * 19) * 3) + 80 = 857.
*really* close.

This would also contribute to their save bonus twice (once for charisma, and once for the govorning attribute), and to their base attack bonus, to some degree.


The goblins are strange.. I don't know why the developers added different creature files for the goblins on the docks, vs the goblins in the houses on the docks, for example.. but they did.. The goblins outside in front of the warehouse have 4 hps. I'm not sure if this 4 hps deviates from their base hit points before any constitution penalties or how much that would even matter at level 1.. But even using the formula above I don't see any way to arrive at 150+.. from 4 *3, they'd need to have either a constitution modifier of +138(!!), or have their level increased..

I don't *think* the monsters get their levels increased, since it *seems* that their levels alone determine their attacks per round, and I haven't noticed any monsters getting additional attacks per round.. I'd have to look into the goblins more... I was pointedly avoiding them since I'd have to repeatedly create a party and talk to Hedron at the beginning of every test (Unless I replaced *him* into a goblin.... hmm...)

It's possible the goblins I was testing in HoF are different .cre files than the one I was testing in normal, due to the fact that the party is higher level when they enter the docks on HoF, than they are when they enter the docks at level 1, on normal..


The JUPP was the was the first place I looked when I started this, but I didn't find the actual formulas. I imagine that Jukka does.. or did.. have the answers, though.. *sigh*..

Even if I could find it, I doubt my feeble rank 1 Hide-on-internet. move anonymously, and disarm firewall skills are even close sufficient to sneak into the his temple and excavate the ancient Tablet of Jukka without angering his lich.. I might be able to defeat it in melee, but the guardians he summons can cast imprisonment multiple times\day, so I'd probably be better served to go practice my necromancy and\or divination, if there is even any chance.

Regardless, thank you both for your replies.. I'll continue digging around and see what I can find.

 

Whoa, this gem just HAS to get resurrected.

No one told me there has been more actual testing done on the HoF statistics of monsters. The triple hit point thing was always kind of vague.. triple of what? Seems like base hp from the "roll of dice" according to monster's Hit Dice. Rest is just governed by the CON bonus and level of the mob.

I just assumed +10 to all stats, never bothered to pinpoint this closer than that, so +6 to all stats it is. It's not really that easily seen anyway. No idea if the +15 to saves is before or after the additions to DEX, CON and WIS that modify the associated saving throw, but it's usually just the expected total that you'd be interested in anyway. Likewise, it's hardly ever interesting how the monsters came up with their base attack bonus, just what they end up with.

The goblin anomaly is most likely the result of different starting level in HOF with imported characters messing up the automated challenge adjustment thingy. Restarting normal mode with a high level character results in those supergoblins with 100+ hp, +10 to hit and 1d6 + 10 damage, so I'd assume the HOF version modifies this supergoblin, not the 4 hp weakling one.

 

Exact formula on HoF HP = ( Base hp *3 + 80 ) + ( Constitution bonus * Total level )
base hp predefined in .cre files.
each attribute buffed +10 points,
each kit gains +12 lvl.
. for example, a single class lvl 5 fighter gain 12 fighter levels = lvl 17 fighter,
. but a multi classsing f/t/m gains 12 in each class = plus 36 levels!

example targos dock goblins:
. creature base hp is 4, lvl 1 fighter

. attributes after buff =
. str 18 dex 23 con 21(+5) int 20 wis 21 cha 18 (yes, it's a puny goblin)
. constitution bonus for 21 con points = 5

. fighter lvl 1+12=13

thus (4*3+80)+(5*13)=157 hp.

....................

for slayer knight xvim: base 126*3+80=458
con bonus = +9
lvl+12 for each kit, so: 19+12*2=43

458+9*43=845 hp

 

I use a 6-man of average party level 20 for Heart of Fury mode. I think the odd xp number gained, quest and kill, are due to 2 men got 20% xp penalties, as once I cheat their level until no more penalties, the odd number goes away.

Targos Dock: Goblin give zero xp. not even the named goblin in warehouse give any. The Iron Bands trio dont give any when the chance to kill them arrive.

Targos Proper: Phaen= doppeldanger = 221xp. The summoned named goblin doesnt give any.

Targos Palisade siege: only Caballus = 221xp. Nothing else.

Shaengarne 1st map and 2nd map: Orc shaman/ warrior/ archer = 221 xp. Aka each mob unit equal the best named commander of the siege~ Torak I forgot to check but maybe 332 xp or around that, ie nothing special.
Vrek Vileclaw = 664 which is best so far. The slime variety = 221
Shaengarne Pass: Gaernat is 332 xp I think, nothing special. The rest 221.
Shaengarne Ford: Malarite High Priest 332xp, the rest 221.

As you can see, in order to stop the zero xp (without mod), a Heart of Fury party probabbly shouldnt exceed level 18 initially.

Challenge Rating is probabbly +10 to normal version, not doubled. is my estimated guess.

 

A very obvious change to gameplay in Heart of Fury is undeads no longer affected by Turn Undead. The +10 CR is simply too much~

 

Exactly. CR is boosted +10 along with attributes thus easily tweakable with CustomDll. Inside NearInfinity can see CR as a 'unknown' value near attributes.

 

Another qualitative change is the 8 Chambers. Other than the 1st chamber, the monks of the rest is +20 damage resistant and cold resistant (mostly). You HAVE to rely on high level summons (Greater Boneguard, Fire elemental, Gelugon) to cause damage, with maybe Spiritual Weapon (plus Holy Power) spell to injure them a little.

 

Regarding summons:
Even the goblins from summon I can have 80+ hp and can survive at least 2 rounds one-on-one.
The Animate Undead can summon upto Zombie Lord and Greater boneguard, which are the longest duration summons. Greater Festering Drown Dead and Apocalyptic boneguard now are for hostiles only, and even at Heart of Fury average party level 22.8, only appear at the later stage like Fields of Slaughter etc...
(Greater) Shadow Conjuration are good, nough said.
Gate can get a Gelugon with its Teleport Without Error. If you cast it without Prot Evil, it can wreck havoc on your back rank. Also impossible to control so mostly act as area denial guard, unless you can lure hostiles into its sight.