Degrees of Cheesiness

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Out of the ranking from 1-5 (1 being a legitimate tactic, 5 being one of the lamest things you've ever heard), please rate the following BG2 situations:

1) Importing items your character left BG1 with
2) Re-rolling for hours for that "perfect character"
3) The use of level cap removers
4) The use of Crom Faeyr
5) The use of Protection from Magic scrolls in any situation
6) Backstab, turn a corner, hide in shadows, backstab, repeat
7) Using invisible characters to block an enemy's path while you make ranged attacks
8) Letting an enemy attack a summon that cannot be killed with his weapon while making ranged attacks
9) Pickpocketing an enemy before it goes hostile, yielding 2 of the same item
10) The use of the Bonus Merchants' items

 

1) 5
2) 3
3) 3
4) 1
5) 1
6) 3
7) 4
8) 1
9) 4
10) 1

 

1) 3 - The items do unbalance the first dungeon but are not really all that great, on the other hand if I was playing pen and paper and my DM told me that I was suddenly captured by a wizard and oh by the way all of your gear is now gone I would probably not be very happy about it.
2) 2 - A waste of time more than being cheesy but this is barely better than using cheats to boost stats.
3) 3 - Kind of pointless in my mind - you are more than tough enough at level cap as it is, still the cap is there and circumventing it is cheating.
4) 1 - It is powerful but it was included in the game and you really have to do a lot to get all of the pieces.
5) 1 - They were put in the game by the developers and it is not as if there are dozens of them. Using projected images to keep using the same scroll over and over again IS cheesy.
6) 4 - The enemy would have to be a brainless moron for this to work. Maybe I can see using invisibility to strike at an enemies weak spots but I don't think that anyone would but so dumb as not to notice someone creeping up over and over again.
7) 5 - This is just plain wrong - anything with half a brain would strike out at the invisible people who are trying to hold him/her back.
8) 1 - if you are faced with an opponent that seems difficult to injure I would think that you would either try harder or run away and morale failure covers the run away part.
9) 5 - If there were meant to be two of the item then you should find two if you kill it without pick pocketing it - anything else is exploiting bad programming.
10) 1 - They were included in the game by the developers. Sure a couple of them are very powerful but they are included so they are fine. If you want a greater challenge and don't use them then that is your choice.

Edit: Added explanations to my numerical scores.

[ July 23, 2004, 22:51: Message edited by: JSBB ]

 

1) 3 - it's not totally inconceivable that Irenicus left some, if not all of your stuff in the room next door.

2) 2 - it's not really cheesy, just a waste of time

3) 5 - cheesy - game meant to have maximum levels. Going way beyond this makes game a joke even on hardest difficulty level.

4) 1 - legitimate weapon. Yes, it's overpowered for SoA, but it is comprable to lots of weapons in ToB.

5) 1 - if you are actually casting it from a scroll and you acquired the scroll legitimately.

6) 4 - that's pretty cheesy. Maybe you could do it twice and get away with it, but if you are doing it 3, 4, 5 times on the same battle, a RL enemy or group of enemies would catch on.

7) 3 - it's really variable depending on the intelligence of the creature involved. Joe Orc or a brainless golem it isn't cheesy. An intelligent mage it is cheesy. I'll split the difference on this one and go with 3.

8) 3 - with the same reasoning as #7

9) 5 - Pure cheddar

10) 1 - hard to call this one cheesy. Yes, the items are way overpowered, but they were put there by the game designers. I define cheese as more or less exposing or exploiting a bug in the game engine. This is just using something the designers planned on you using.

 

1: 3 - somewhat silly, but one can 'talk it into the game'
2: 1 - albeit a waste of ones time - you ARE a godchild after all
3: 1 - then just turn the difficulty up - one of the good things of RPG vs most other genres is char. development and I hate it when that is blocked at some point, for whatever reason, and as gaming is for me entertainment, I consider it valid to remove it, although I might impose some other restrictions on myself to compensate.
4: 2 - it's there to be used, and you have to sacrifice some very handy items to get it, but it's somewhat overpowered, don't put on a char with low Str by default
5: 1 as long as the scrolls were acquired legitimately
6: 3, higher if repeatedly repeated.
7: 4 an enemy would indeed eventually take a swipe, and golems should be able to walk THROUGH most anything
8: 2 but not be used on 'smart enemies' - btw isn't there something that makes enemies rederict there attacks if they have no effect?
If used together with 7 scores 5.
9:5 - how pathetic
10: N/A because I don't have the bonus merchant mod thingy

BTW creative topic I don't think I've seen a topic like this before (could just be my ignorance though)

 

1) 5 - where would you stick them?
2) 2 - you are a hero after all
3) 3
4) 1
5) 1
6) 1
7) 3
8) 1 - why shouldn't my druid cast an elemental?
9) 5
10) 1 - they are legit and Deidrie comes with TOB anyway

 

1) 5 - having lots of great items right at the start is seriously unbalancing. Way too cheesy.

2) 3 - Why bother? there are so many stat increasing items to be found

3) 2 - Why not? though I dont use them, since you rarely reach the cap until just before Melisan. (with a 6 person party)

4) 1 - Given how much you have to do to get it. No way. Completely legitimate

5) 2 - Slightly cheesy, but they are in the original game, so why not? Still, it is a bit of a wuss' way out

6) 2 - Slightly cheesy, but you are maximising the skills of your character.

7) 5 - If it were real, the enemy would move round or attack the blank obstacle. Since the AI isnt up to it, using this is mega cheese

8) 1 - That's the use of tactics. Perfectly ok to me.

9) 4 - pretty cheesy. Not unthinkable, but still pretty low.

10) 3 - depends, some are a bit overpowered. Shield of Balduran is silly. I use it, but I acknowledge it's pure cheese. Others are ok though, like the sensate amulet.

 

For everyone's convinience,i'm posting the items again before I do mine because it's annoying to keep scrolling up with every one.

1) Importing items your character left BG1 with
2) Re-rolling for hours for that "perfect character"
3) The use of level cap removers
4) The use of Crom Faeyr
5) The use of Protection from Magic scrolls in any situation
6) Backstab, turn a corner, hide in shadows, backstab, repeat
7) Using invisible characters to block an enemy's path while you make ranged attacks
8) Letting an enemy attack a summon that cannot be killed with his weapon while making ranged attacks
9) Pickpocketing an enemy before it goes hostile, yielding 2 of the same item
10) The use of the Bonus Merchants' items

1)-4, In a real life situation, chances are Irenicus wouldn't have left your items lying around.
2)-1, It's your character, if you wanna waste your time doing that It's not my problem, it's perfectly legal, but it does give you more motivation not to give up on your character
3)-3, I averaged this because it depends if you're doing it because you can't beat everything, or because you just wanna see how powerful you can get with higher levels.
4)-1, It's a perfectly legitimate weapon, you put a lot of effort into getting it, so there should be no qualms about it.
5)-1, Also a perfectly legitimate thing. It may make certain battles easy, but there are at most 3 or 4 in the game. The only way it would be REALLY cheesy is to get three but just keep casting simulacrum when you wanna use one .
6)-4, in real life, enemies would learn to walk aroudn the corner quickly and see you there.
7)-5, IRL this would be completely obvious, even someone with an intellegence of 3 would start slashing at the invisible "wall".
8)-4, IRL he would stop attacking it and go for you.
9)-5, It just makes very rare items not so rare.
10-1, again, legitimate items, but the really good ones cost fair amounts of gold, so it's moot.

 

1) N/A - I don't have BG1. I would give it a 1, but I don't know how powerful these imported items are.

2) 1 - You're not likely going to roll too high anyways. This better rates how determined the player is than how cheesy rolling is.

3) 4 - Sometimes it's fun to get to level 40, see those nice stats and romp through the game. But other than that, don't spoil the challenge of gaming with this.

4) 2 - See Bald Ranger's comment.

5) 1 - Use when desperate. You only get two anyways.

6) 1 - That's how assassins do their job, especially early in the game. I usually can't run away that fast though.

7) 4 - I've never tried that before. I don't recall having any success with ranged attacks on golems...

8) 1 - That's why we have nishruu, Mord Swords and elementals.

9) 5 - You are not intended to have multiple copies of that item.

10) 4 - The Robe and Shield are just too good. I like the extra spells available to scribe though.

 

1] 3 - If Irenicus can leave you the golden pants and your dead brothers sword, why not some other stuff? I would limit it somewhat to armour and weapons tho. Rings, necklaces and girdles are way too easy to get lost.

2] 1 - The game allows it. And come on! You are a god child. Or god bastard if you want. You gotta have good stats.

3] 2 - It can always be argued that the level cap is a bit arbitrary considering you already got there with quests to spare.

4] 2 - It's a part of the original game. And a two-handed weapon swung by a 22Str guy might probably hurt more. Then again ...

5] 1 - Again part of the original game and thus intended to be use. Agree using Simulacurm would be wayyy cheesy.

6] 4 - Damn cheesy!

7] 5 - If the enemy wanted to get at you they would go through any 'wall' you create.

8] 2 - How does the enemy know there is not enough damage being done? Not like you had an intimate knowledge of such details for all creatures without the 'reload' button.

9] 5 - Definately cheesy. The enemy had one of it. His corpse cant generate another. Wonder how we manage to pick whole armours tho?

10] 3 - Somewhat cheesy, but not more than the Crom Fayer.

 

1) Importing items your character left BG1 with
5 - You have been captured. What makes you think you should have access to those items? You are lucky you can recover the Helm of Balduran. (The pants are an easter egg, so you have to give them some leeway in letting you keep them)

2) Re-rolling for hours for that "perfect character"
3 - Of course this is cheesy. I indulge myself in this brand of cheese though.

3) The use of level cap removers
5 - Outright cheating.

4) The use of Crom Faeyr
1 - Great weapon, but come on! With all the giant belts and other fantastic weapons, this is not an unbalanced item.

5) The use of Protection from Magic scrolls in any situation
2 - The problem arises when you manage to use "eat the pie and keep it" as you can by using Project Image and Simulacrum.

6) Backstab, turn a corner, hide in shadows, backstab, repeat.
2 - Basically it's acceptable, but it's also cheesy because the enemy should be on higher alert after one backstab.

7) Using invisible characters to block an enemy's path while you make ranged attacks
4 - Abuse. You'd be able to get around or hit the invisible character. Should work against golems and other enemies without a brain.

8) Letting an enemy attack a summon that cannot be killed with his weapon while making ranged attacks
2 - Depends on the enemy's intelligence.

9) Pickpocketing an enemy before it goes hostile, yielding 2 of the same item
5 - It's pure abuse.

10) The use of the Bonus Merchants' items
2 - They are official, but Shield of Balduran is IMHO too much, bringing the score from 1to 2.

 

umm where is Project Image or Staff of Magi and tons of other stuff?

1) Importing items your character left BG1 with - 3
2) Re-rolling for hours for that "perfect character" - 1
3) The use of level cap removers - 5
4) The use of Crom Faeyr - 5
5) The use of Protection from Magic scrolls in any situation - 5
6) Backstab, turn a corner, hide in shadows, backstab, repeat - 5
7) Using invisible characters to block an enemy's path while you make ranged attacks - 5
8) Letting an enemy attack a summon that cannot be killed with his weapon while making ranged attacks - 1
9) Pickpocketing an enemy before it goes hostile, yielding 2 of the same item - 5
10) The use of the Bonus Merchants' items - 5

 

1) 1.5 They should be in some guarded room only accessable at the end of the dungeon.
2) 4 I always do it but it should not be allowed, although it does keep powergamers from getting too pissed off with the game before starting(like myself)
3) 1 Justified on the more difficult settings.
4) 1 You have to sacrifice a number of powerful items to get it and defeat some uber powerful enemies to get them, plus you only get it at the end of the game.
5)1 but only if you know that you will need them if you were the player (as opposed to knowing through a walkthrough etc.) or using them in combat.
6) 1 The enemy would get pretty paranoid though.
7) 2 Any enemy would strike blindly at the obstical, more inteligent mages would cast ant-invisibility spells.
8) 3 They would probably give up and go for a differnt target if they have suitable intelegence.
9) 5 complete cheese
10) 1 But they should cost more.

How about smuggling the rift device out of the unseeing eye quest using your familiar, put it in your quick slot and then casting project image whenever versing a tough enemy and blasting him. -don't bother answering this!

 

1) 3 - If I imported a character from BG1 I might justify finding a few fairly useful items at the end of the "Chateau", but obviously the powerful stuff would have been safely hidden.
2) 2 - I don't do it for *hours*, but I always reroll enough that I have at least 84 total stats (I go by 14 all to make the math quicker ).
3) 1 - I'm not sure I understand all the hate here. I've only barely reached the cap with a full person party, and I'm inclined to believe that smaller parties, especially soloists, should be entitled to reaching higher levels to overcome their foes. Also, isn't the SoA cap removed if you install ToB? Strikes me that that would make it clearly legit.
4) 1 - C'mon, I barely think it's worth the sacrifice of taking the massive strength off a weak party member to help a fighter who probably doesn't need the boost
5) 2 - Surely something that, in reality, an adventurer (at least a non-wizard) would never leave home without. Don't brag about using it though
6) 2 - Well it can be cheesy, but a lonely thief has the right to dance through the shadows against an opponent who would obviously be near dying of a heart attack from all the being stabbed and nervously looking around to find his assailant...
7) 4 - If they don't have a ranged attack, then it's just a cheap way to pin them.
8) 2 - Mentally slower foes would probably get frustrated; smarter foes would freak and run or go for your throat.
9) 5 - Obvious.
10) 1 - But some are worse than others.

 

1) Importing items your character left BG1 with: 5 they are too good
2) Re-rolling for hours for that "perfect character": 3 if it's some minutes, 5 if it really is hours
3) The use of level cap removers 5 not everybody has this installed
4) The use of Crom Faeyr 1 It's not that great; some weapons are cheesier
5) The use of Protection from Magic scrolls in any situation 4 rather cheesy, a weak party can win tough battles this way
6) Backstab, turn a corner, hide in shadows, backstab, repeat 1 seems possible in real life. If enemies don't like it, let them cast true sight or something. Some enemies gulp invisibility potions, don't move and backstab, isn't it cheesier?
7) Using invisible characters to block an enemy's path while you make ranged attacks 5 pathetic
8) Letting an enemy attack a summon that cannot be killed with his weapon while making ranged attacks
5 it depends on low enemy AI
9) Pickpocketing an enemy before it goes hostile, yielding 2 of the same item 5 bug exploit
10) The use of the Bonus Merchants' items 5 because it's not in the game of everybody

We may add: Cape of Cheese, Illithid's Collars of Cheese, Melf's Cheesy Meteors, amd so much more.
Now let us not insult too much cheesy players, because BG2 is a game of Cheese.

 

well if the game is in fact a "game of Cheese" why to attempt to rate cheesiness in the first place? why to frown upon others coz they use cheese since its only a matter of opinion and nothing else what cheese is and whatsnot?

i have to laugh at the arguments like "in RL or intelligent enemy" .. coz thats completely pointelss and not a valid argument. if every enemy was intelligent as human player or according to their characteristics or if they behaved like human player (reading battle text, resting, running away etc etc) i dare to say that only very few ppl, if anyone at all, would actually be able to complete the game.

 

1) 5 - It's simply not realistic.
2) 1 - You can do it, right? I do. And I hardly ever get great stats. But why not?
3) 5 - No. No, no, no, no, no.
4) 2 - It's in the game, right?
5) 2 - See my answer for number four.
6) 3 - Well, this relies on the corner as well as the overall stealth skill.
7) 5 - What kind of a stupid person wouldn't realize something was standing in the way? Honestly.
8) 3 - Well, summons are useful, and they're meant to be attacked.
9) 4 - How is that fair?
10) 1 - They're in the game. And you have to pay.

 

Deda Jag, you're what we roleplayers call a munchkin. The IRL factor and intellegent enemy comes from the fact that some of us don't want to exploit everything and want to make it as real as possible, and use the OTHER half of the game, Roleplaying. We try to make it as much IRL as possible when roleplaying, so it's our choice.

 

@Capt Massacre: What is cheesy about Melf's Meteors? The Cloak and Illithid collars I can definitely understand, but the meteors?