3.5 ed. - Wizard vs Sorcerer

Remove all ads!

Hi, what's up? I haven't been posting for a while, was busy with my courses. Anyway, there's a chance that a D&D rpg group might form, and since I've never rp-ed outside of a computer game before, I would ask for some advice. As it looks now, I might be the fragile voice of intellectual development in the group - aka the arcane spellcaster. I was planning to go mage, but the DM recommended that as a first-timer I try sorcerer instead. I took a look and... well, I have seen the mechanics between newer games such as NWN and IWD II so I understand how most spells work, but still perhaps remembering the 100+ spells a wizard might have later on seems a bother. On the other hand, the wizard seems to have some boni when it comes to feats etc. so it might be worth it, and having the ability to prepare an obscure spell you probably won't pick as a sourcerer but might need in some occasions... What do you think from experience?

 

I find the sorcerer easier. My evil diviner witch was hard as I wasn't sure how many spells she was allowed to learn, the number she could memorize and the difference between them. The PHB doesn't have tables for those.

The best part of playing either class is taking an elf. Elves get martial weapon profs of composite long bow and short bow, the normal long bow and short bow, long sword and rapier. IMO, much better than the older edition rules.

Anyway, yeah, a sorcerer is easier to play than a wizard. Just pick spells that will last for the whole campaign, though with some imagination, you can find interesting uses for some 'useless' spells.

 

Aggred, although i usually use a mage as I am not a noobie with magic so i like to my mage to be a personal touch... But a sorcerer is a great class and perfect for somebody new to the arcane.

 

What about weapons/equipment/familiar? I was planning to go with 2-h spear (not longspear), and light crossbow... I plan to play either human or half-elf, maybe human as there won't be another arcane spellcaster so I might need a few more skill pts. For a familiar, I was thinking raven, but would just 3 ranks in appraise be any good? I was thinking it'd be pretty neat - it can fly, speak... does it have any other skills? I haven't seen the MM article about it...

 

Personally, I prefer wizards, because I like to be able to choose my spells based on need. However, I'm an old hand at D&D, so sorcerer rubbed me a bit wrong. Choose your spells very carefully as a sorcerer, and don't forget the ability to change them out as you level up... sleep is great at low levels, but should be dropped as soon as you can.

For familiar, I would say that raven really is the best choice. It's ability to speak is a huge bonus (especially if you can convince your DM to allow it to use items which require a command word), and makes it far more useful at low levels than other creatures.

For equipment, if you're going human or half-elf, I would really say that dagger, quarterstaff, or spear are your best options. Cheap, light, and useful. Light crossbows are also good ideas, though that would incline me more towards the dagger, personally.

 

Well, i belive my opinion mirror what have sumarised from the rest of the thread. a Sorcerer is much easier, and was indeed made as a "simple wizard" class.

But if you have the experience and/or guts for it, Wizard is a better class in my opinion. Requires a good bit of micromanagment and control though.


Tiny Rant: As i have argued before, a wizard can actually outgun/outspell a sorcerer if you do it right

[ October 22, 2005, 10:55: Message edited by: raptor ]

 

Well, it appears that I will indeed be the only arcane caster in the group - which will likely consist also of a barbarian, fighter, rogue (who might take a few levels of mage later (but likely won't) and a druid. Given how the druid will probably concentrate on healing more than damage-dealing (pet excluded), I suppose I would have to focus on offensive magic. Any low-level favourites? So far it seems magic missile will be a favourite, although it takes a few more levels to kick in...

 

I try to pick spells that don't go out of style. From the PHB:

Level 1: Burning Hands, Ray of Enfeeblement and Color Spray
Level 2: Melf's Acid Arrow, Flaming Sphere and Scorching Ray

Ray of Enfeeblement was the only effective way of dealing with an ice demon in my group's last campaign. It knocked her strength down so much, she couldn't move to chase us.

 

Something a lot of arcane casters do, is go for the evocation spells. The ones that deal damage. The wizard/sorcerer's strengths are at battlefield control and utility. Damage, anyone can do. That's what you have fighters and barbarians for. Damage focussed spells should be kept secondary, imho. The arcane caster can create circumstances which make survival for him and the party much easier, as well as making it easier for the part to defeat their opponents or overcome obstacles.

My choices:
Grease: Make it harder for an enemy to go through a corridor or charge at you. Make the bigass giant lose his grip on his maul
Featherfall: Not falling to your death is a plus. Especially when the DM loves pit traps.
Enlarge: Make the tank a more threatening force, thereby getting attention away from you. You also give the tank a damage boost and reach.
Spiderclimb: Good for getting where others can't.
Glitterdust: No more rogues doing hit and run sneak attacks with hiding. Also has a chance to blind enemies. Yay.
Web: Slow enemies down, making it easier to kill them. Something that's webbed can be sneaked by a rogue with a bow.
Shatter: Destroy the orc's ordinary greataxe, destroy the lock on the door you can't pick, burst the potions of alchemist's fire just as the rogue is about to toss them at you thereby covering himself in the stuff.
Mirror Image: Rough 50% chance of not getting hit.
Obscuring Mist: Gives cover, which makes it impossible for rogues to sneak attack you.

At low level, while magicmissile seems a good option, you hardly do any damage with it. Better to get yourself a crossbow and shoot that.

 

I like all of faragorns sugestions.

Other spells i often find handy:

Sleep: this spell is invaluable in low levels, almost no monsters at low CR will have a good Willsave or be immune to this. If you meet 5 orcs, at least 3 should fall or your plain unlucky. But remember to choose it away later on.

Aganazars scorcerer (FR spell iirc): Its a second level fire spell, that can hit multiple targets, It is just really nice for holding a door or a hall forexample, with fighter friends taking care of anything that actually manages to rush past 10-20 feet of fire just to get at you.

Unseen Servant: A buddy of mine played a necromancer, that used this spell to steal valuables in trapped rooms he could summon it and let it open windows for him, and gliding through the room without springing traps, and if it actually did. i twas not like it hurt him.

Levitate: mostly same as spider climb, and i doubt i woul dhave picked both.

Bull's Strength: Im not to big a fan of the stat boosting spells myself, but your fighters will love you to death if you can grant them a few STR bonuses every fight. Especially nice before everyone got a MAgic weapon of their choice, as it can make fighters overcome damage reduction.

 

Is web any good? It was perfect in CRPGs for immobilizing enemies, but here it has to be "between 2 surfaces" - can I just lay it on the floor?

 

I would count the space between 2 walls as 'between something'. Outside shouldn't be a problem as you can say its mingled with the grass or rocks.

Web works okay until you run into something that's very strong or very dextrious. The strength and escape artist checks for web aren't that difficult to beat. It's better than anything else for holding back enemies, especially if the cleric didn't bother to pray for hold person. Bad cleric.

 

A third level spells shall be thy favourite; Suggestion This spell rock! With this spells you ''suggest'' the target to do something and most of the time it'll do it, as long as it's not suicidal. Saying to person to tell an angry troll that he look sassy and should get a bath because the smell can be seem is not suicidal by itself, though it's generaly not a good idea.

I agree with Faragon, though I'm into the manipulation and summoning spells myself. Nothing like, Scare, Mental Control, Confusion, or Summoning beast to do your biding and the suchs. Guess my mages are more evil...

 

What of the following spells? They sound promising on paper...
- Color spray - I do not know if it affects allies, but it seems a bit better than sleep in the short run (minimum effect on low-HD creatures if they fail the save for 4? rounds, allows for affecting stronger creatures), although it seems to miss on the duration. Weeell, there is something to be said about coup de grace...
- Mage armor - given the lack of hp and AC, I would rather have something up my sleeve in case of archers etc. I think I can also cast it on others, right? I suppose no one would mind a +4 deflection bonus to their AC
- reduce person - heh... Have fun with ogres, town bullies, etc. Small problem: most of them have decent fort. saves

Otherwise, glitterdust and obscuring mist seem good disabling/aiding spells, and given the fact I don't expect a cleric in the party, they might come in handy. Still, I would like to have at least 1 damage-dealing spell per level, perhaps magic missile (around level 3, perhaps) and later scorch ray...

 

Color spray can be very effective. The transmuter in a game I play has just about made it his signature spell.
Mage Armor CAN be cast on others, but gives an armor bonus, not a deflection bonus. Which means it will not stack with the fighter's plate mail (or other armor) or shield.
Reduce Person, eh. I'd say go for Ray of Enfeeblement instead, if it's STR drain you want. Also, smaller sizes bring AC increases, which'll make it harder for the tanks to hit the target. I'd pass.

As for one damage spell per spell-level (something I agree with and recommend) I'd pick MagicMissile for first, Scorching Ray for second and Fireball for third. For fourth, I'd pick Evard's Black Tentacles, since it's a good mix of damage and battlefield control.

 

I am very far away from lvl 4 spells, but what do you think about phantasmal killer? To me it sounds very fun against low-will targets, but have you actually tried it in a regular adventure?

 

The problem with sorcerers is that they are very bleak. They get no class features except the familiar. The skill points are too few, and the class skill list is a joke.

Additionally, there are very few PrCs around which fit a sorcerer. That's a pity, because PrCs are the only way to make the boring base class interesting.

The only plusses are the lack of a spellbook and the multiple casting of spells.

Don't take me wrong: I like the concept. But the actual class is a very sad thing.


I'd try and convince your DM to modify the sorc a bit.

 

Phantasmal Killer, mhmm... I haven't used it myself, but in my opinion the spell allows for too many chances for the character to resist it's desired effect. (killing the enemy) Both a high willsave and a high fortsave can prevent the spell from working to it's full capacity. The 3d6 on a failed will but succesfull fortsave is peanuts.

If you want to remove an enemy from the battlefield, I'd advise the following spells instead of PK: Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Charm Monster, Polymorph Other or Hold Person (3.0 version)

Edit: The Sorcerer class is very poorly designed mechanically. There is no reason whatsoever to continue taking it past the 6th level (which is when you qualify for most prestige classes) because all more levels of Sorcerer does is up your Casterlevel/spells known (which spellcasting PRCs do just as well) and increase your familiar's abilities (which hardly anyone thinks is worth doing. Even at 6th level you get most the goodies a familiar gets.) That, aside from them still requiring spellcomponents which is stupid since they're supposed to be innate casters. Proficiency in simple weapons is worth ****e and don't get me started on the class skills/skillpoints.

 

True, but I suppose for a 4th level "finger of death" I suppose the extra save is only fair . I dunno, I have a looong way to go to lvl 8 so we'll see.
BTW, which prestige classes will continue giving spells/caster levels to a CG sorcerer? I'm not too familiar with prestige classes.

 

You want to look for prestige classes that say: +1 to existing arcane class or something like that. It means each level you take of a prestige class adds to your total caster level.
Example: If you're a 5th level sorcerer/2nd level Loremaster, your caster level is 7. This would mean you cast your spells as a 7th level sorcerer instead of a 5th level one. It really boosts the damage and duration of spells.

You need a good prestige class for a sorcerer, how about Dragon Disciple? From the DMG:

8 ranks is around level 5 and the spellcasting is what sorcerers and bards do. Dragon Disciple doesn't add to your caster level, but you do get bonus spells as if you had a really high Charisma score.