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A Famous Day in American History

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Chandos the Red, Jul 12, 2004.

  1. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    The most famous Duel in American history was re-enacted today for the 200 year anniversary of the Hamilton-Burr shootout at Weehawken. Here's a link:

    http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/040711/480/njmg10307111740

    Because of the rules of engagement, no one is exactly sure what happened that fateful day. But according to Joseph Ellis, author of the best-selling book, Founding Brothers, two shots were fired. The first is thought to have been by Hamilton, who won the first shot. The second, and fatal shot, by Burr. Because those accompanying them were required to turn their backs on the actual firing (so that no witnesses could testify later on), no one actually saw the exchange.

    Hamilton's doctor went back to the scene later on after the duel and found a branch that had been shot off the tree under which Burr was standing, about twenty feet. It is thought that Hamilton had fired to miss Burr intentionally, hoping that Burr would be satisfied. It is certain that Burr fired the second shot, and it may have been to only wound Hamilton in the leg, which often happened in such duels for the "sake of honor." But he may have missed and shot him in the hip. The problem was that the bullet bounced off a bone and then lodged in Hamilton's lower spine, which proved fatal.

    But firing low to wound an opponent was an often used strategy, especially because it was still considered murder to kill someone in a duel. The duel finished Burr's political career for all practical purposes. And he was despised by many for the rest of his life.

    Hamilton died the next day, July 12th.
    He was one of the most impressive of the Founding Brothers and would have been a man to be reckoned with in any age. Hamilton's vision of America has largely prevailed over Jefferson's, his main political nemesis. Jefferson was still right in that the nation would become more democratic as it evolved out of the early stages of government. But Jefferson was wrong in that the power of the states would prevail over the central government. Instead we have Hamilton's vision of a strong federal power, which unifies a single nation, and is largely urban and cosmopolitan in its nature, instead of the agrarian and communal vision, which Jefferson foresaw for America.

    For some of us it seems odd that the Reaganites wish to remove Hamilton from the $10 dollar bill and replace him with Ronald Reagan. The reason most floated by this tribe is that Hamilton was never a president. Well, neither was Franklin. But more importantly what America has become is what Hamilton said it should become, and is the result of both his magnificent crafting (of both the national monetary system and his hand in the Constitution) and his amazing foresight to predict America's true future.
     
  2. Harbourboy

    Harbourboy Take thy form from off my door! Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    Never heard of it. Surely that can't be the MOST famous duel? Actually, come to think of it, I can't think fo any famous (non-fictional) duels, so maybe it could be.... :confused:
     
  3. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    Actually, I would say it is America's most famous duel. Perhaps if you aren't American, you won't be familiar, because, as Chandros stated, neither Hamilton or Burr ever became President - the duel assured that, but for vastly different reasons for those involved.

    This is the story as it is most commonly told. Not only was killing someone in a duel considered murder, but even participating in a duel was illegal. So Hamilton did the "noble" or "gentleman action" by firing his shot into the air with no intention of injuring Burr. However, it was Burr that provoked the duel in the first place so he never intended not to at least injure Hamilton. (Note the person issuing the challenge in the duel always had the second shot.)

    There is second point that I would like to bring up. It was a long time ago that I read about this, but it is said that years earlier, during the Revolutionary War that Burr actually saved Hamilton's life. It's been so long that I do not remember the circumstances surrounding that action, but I remember it seemed plausible at the time I read it. I'm sure Chandros could clear this up.
     
  4. Grey Magistrate Gems: 14/31
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    Thanks, Chandos! Hamilton is my favorite Founding Father - personal hero, even. And yet I didn't even realize the anniversary was upon us. I can't add anything to your moving retelling of those two fateful duels - with Burr by bullets, Jefferson by ideas - except to recommend that anyone interested in the topic read not only "Founding Brothers", but also Ron Chernow's new book, "Alexander Hamilton". I haven't read it yet, but Chandos and the Wall Street Journal highly recommend it - and hey, when those two agree, you KNOW it's quality.

    You said it, Chandos - Hamilton foresaw the strong, centralized, cosmopolitan America, more than a century and a half too early. Hamilton even was one of the first coherent proponents of small government deficits (emphasis on small). Not Reaganesque at all. He was a man for the ages - shall we see his like again? And what would today's visionaries see, watching as the world is globalized - or, maybe, Americanized? Or an America globalized?

    As for the push to strip Hamilton from the $10 bill - I'm appalled. We need more things with his name and image, not less. Hmm...even with the new WW2 Memorial, there's still some room left on the Mall...
     
  5. Sir Belisarius

    Sir Belisarius Viconia's Boy Toy Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder

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    [​IMG] I'm actually related to Aaron Burr through my grandmother on my father's side. ALexander Hamilton shouldn't have been talking **** about my ancestor...That's why he had to pop a cap in his ass! ;) :p
     
  6. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Y'know, the interesting think about this duel is that we'll never know what could have happened. Consider whether the 19th century American people would have elected Hamilton, half-jewish and illegitimate, as president, notwithstanding his recognized genius (both political and "general") and the fact that he was Washington's aide in the Revolutionary War, and the founder of the American monetary system. He also had personal indiscretions and a bloated ego.

    As for Burr, he also had the bloated ego and political issues, but may have been more electable, maybe not. It's fun, because we'll never know whether either of them would have gotten anywhere if both shot at the trees.
     
  7. Grey Magistrate Gems: 14/31
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    OK, Sir Bel - you, me, ten paces! +2 Crossbows for each! And I'm not aiming for the trees!

    Hamilton did have an ugly personal indiscretion, replete with lust and blackmail...but he 'fessed up when it became known. He had an ego, but he also had the humility to know when to ask forgiveness. Unlike, say, his nemesis Jefferson (assuming those DNA tests are accurate - not certain). President Hamilton would not have required a special prosecutor!
     
  8. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    Hey, Grey, completely off topic, but interesting, did you ever read Safire's Scandalmonger book? Very cool historical fiction.

    (I post this, rather than PM it, because it has very interesting present connotations and also includes a large bit about Hamilton and his indiscretion, so those who read this thread may choose to read the book.)
     
  9. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    Aldeth - I'm not familiar with this story. I finished the section on Hamilton and the Revolution in Chernow's volume on Hamilton, and he made no mention of it. And in no other volume on him have I read that. Hamilton retired after the battle of Yorktown, while Burr left after Monmouth Court House. Burr retired from the active war because of sunstroke he received during the battle - for real. But they were both at the Monmouth, in the thick of the fighting, so it could be a possibility.

    Those test are considered accurate. Two things with Jefferson: First, he was not married any longer, as Hamilton was during his affairs. Jefferson was completely devoted to Martha Jefferson, and it is thought that he swore to her on her deathbed that he would never remarry. He never did, although he certainly had several love affairs, both at home and while in Europe.
    Second, Jefferson did not free Sally Hemings, even after his death. I find it disturbing that he allowed the mother of several of his own children to be sold off. But it is possible that he did free their children in the end, because he did secure the release of a few "special" male servants that may have been those he fathered with Sally.

    There's a good chance that he may have been half-jewish. But there were a few other rumors of Hamilton's origins to contradict that also, which have good supporting evidence. But I believe it unlikely that James Hamilton was his real father, although that has never been officailly disproven. But my own feeling is that Hamilton's great benefactor (much like a character in a Dickens' novel) Thomas Stevens may have been his real father.

    But all that aside, Hamilton had a lot of competition - Washington, president for eight years, and then John Adams (four more years), with Jefferson for another eight years. It's not that Hamilton was not their match; he certainly was. But the Ferderalist Party, really proved no match for Jefferson and Madison's Democratic- Republicans. Together, Jefferson/Madison were a devastating duo, much as Hamilton/Madison had been during the Constitutional Convention.

    The Hamilton/Washington collaboration was strong enough to stem the Jeffersonian tide for a short time, but Washington was too old and too tired, and at the end of his powers. His "Farewell Address," penned by Hamilton, pretty much sums up the devasting rationalism of the Federalist doctrine, which made a powerful argument against what were the worst aspects of the Jeffersonian scheme (largely sectional self-interests and party politics). But Jefferson had a grand vision, which operated at a lofty altitude above most "mere mortals," whereas Hamilton's vision was based merely on a superb plan.

    [ July 14, 2004, 07:38: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]
     
  10. dmc

    dmc Speak softly and carry a big briefcase Staff Member Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!)

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    On Jefferson, the DNA shows only that a Jefferson male fathered her children, not Thomas Jefferson in particular. I seem to recall that there was more than one Jefferson male at Montecito at relevant times, so it's not a 100% accurate statement to say that Jefferson himself was the father. That being said, I'd lay my money there.


    Edit: Time, I think, did a nice bunch of pieces (some fluff, but some having interesting stuff) on Jefferson a couple of weeks ago. I remember reading one of them which said, basically, that you'd need to dig up Sally's kids and Thomas Jefferson, scrape some DNA off and run tests in order to prove paternity. I can't see that happening in the immediate future.
     
  11. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    There comes a point where one has to review the evidence at hand and draw a substantive conclusion based on what we know. It is not absolutely, one-hundred percent certain. But historians, such as Ellis, and other scholars, are writing as if it is a fairly accurate statement to say that Jefferson was the father of at least one, more than likely several, of Sally Heming's children.

    This is from PBS Frontline:
    http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/true/


     
  12. Grey Magistrate Gems: 14/31
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    Completely true. Not only was Hamilton's competition strong and his party fading, but he had been "indiscreet" in the language he used to justify various political positions. His positions on war bonds, term limits, the national bank, England vs. France, centralization, tariffs, the military...most inconvenient, all of them.

    The Federalist Papers proved that Hamilton could sell his arguments. His Treasury position demonstrated that he was a gifted technocrat. But in a popular election, I doubt he could've sold himself.
     
  13. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    Grey - Well, Hamilton was never a man of the "People," as was Jefferson, George Clinton, and even Burr. He was always suspicious of the "masses," and he was as afraid of anarchy as he was of tyranny. In the post-revolutionary climate, as you point out, some of his views were never popular. But he never considered "pandering" to the people to get the support he needed, at least as he saw it. But with Jefferson, political power derived mostly from the People; for Hamilton it was the rule of law, and even practical political necessity. He never had any real populist leanings, much to my own personal disappointment.

    Also, in the post-revolution, I feel that Hamilton came down too squarely on the side of the Tories regarding the rule of law. I think that really worked against him on the public stage.

    [ July 22, 2004, 07:50: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]
     
  14. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    I would think that if Hamilton ever had any aspirations of running for president, he would have done so long before this duel. Hamilton was a relatively young man during the Revolutionary War, and this duel took place nearly 30 years after the Founding Fathers (or Brothers if you prefer) first started having notions to challenge England. I have no idea when Hamilton was born, but he had to be (at a minimum) in his 50s at the time of this duel. If he had wanted to become President, one would have thought he would have made a push for the White House long before then, and AFAIK, he never had any aspirations of becoming president.
     
  15. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    Aldeth - Hamilton was 49.
     
  16. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    :eek: So at the time the Declaration of Independence was signed he was just 21? Wow! And to think in today's society the average person of 21 years of age isn't even taken seriously in politics!
     
  17. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    Aldeth - In July 1776, Hamilton was in New York fighting the British. At that point in his military career he was a young artillery captain, and not one of the signers of the Declaration. As you point out, he was still very young. But he came into contact with radical revolutionary ideology while attending classes at King's College (now Columbia) in New York.

    It is ironic that two of his main political rivals in later years were the driving forces behind the Declaration - John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. Adams was head of the committee to draft the actual document. His writing skills were excellent, but nevertheless, he asked Jefferson to draft the document, because he believed Jefferson would do a better job.

    It's interesting that Adams spent the rest of his years embittered by jealousy, because Jefferson had produced such a masterpiece. And he lamented that Jefferson would be the one most remembered regarding the actual dramatic break with England. Adams had been the great orator of the session, regarded by many as the "colossus for independence," arguing on the floor of the Continental Congress. But Jefferson, having been assigned the task of drafting the document, retired to his hotel room, where he worked in solitude on his portable writing desk.

    But all three men, Jefferson, Adams and Hamilton, had such superb writing skills, while at the same time so different in their approachs to the problems of liberty and government. Hamilton's masterpiece was the "Federalist Papers," written in collaboration with James Madison and John Jay in defence and ratification of the US Constitution, while Adams' was in the drafting of the Constitution of Massachusetts, "The Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States," and his essay "Thoughts on Government."

    But IMHO, Jefferson's writing gets the nod, and remains the most inspiring and artful of the three. It's little wonder that Adams was jealous.

    http://www.constitution.org/jadams/john_adams.htm

    Here's an excellent link also:
    http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch15s61.html

    [ July 22, 2004, 07:43: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]
     
  18. Aldeth the Foppish Idiot

    Aldeth the Foppish Idiot Armed with My Mallet O' Thinking Veteran

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    I still think it is impressive for Hamilton to even be a Captain by the age of 21. That is already a position of leadership, and no one in the army today is a captain that young. Usually the officers are selected out of undergraduate school, with many of them being ROTC. Regardless, the typical age of a 1st Lieutenant is 22 nowadays, and obviously there is a promotion involved to get to captain.

    Granted things were much different back then, but to think that in today's eyes a "kid" was essentially leading an artillery unit is just amazing.
     
  19. Grey Magistrate Gems: 14/31
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    That's not the impression we get from the musical "1776"!

    Well, Hamilton was a captain partly because he personally organized (and equipped) his band of militiamen, so he was captain by default. A self-starter in many senses! But he definitely merited his rank - it wasn't long before Washington noticed him and took him under his wing as his personal aide-de-camp.

    A lawyer, soldier, politician, writer, and technocrat, all rolled into one. It's a good thing the shot that killed him was fired by Burr and not by some British soldier during the Revolution. Who could have replaced him?
     
  20. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

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    Hollywood does it again! I've never seen the musical, but I have read some accounts of the crafting of the Declaration. This is from David McCullough's book, _John Adams_ (Pg 119):

    According to Adams, Jefferson proposed he, Adams do the writing, but he declined, telling Jefferson that he must do it.
    "Why?" Jefferson asked, as Adams would reccount.
    "Reasons enough," Adams said.

    After giving several reasons, such as Jefferson was a Virginian and that a Virginian should draft it, and that he (Adams) was thought to be "too obnoxious." Adams was to say: "You can write ten times better than I can."

    These are Adams' own words (I tend to think that he made some sort of remark in the positive regarding Jefferson's literary skills). Some others have questioned this comment. And Jefferson said he had no recollection of Adams making it. What is clear is that all members on the committee chose Jefferson, including Adams, in the official record.

    [ July 24, 2004, 00:25: Message edited by: Chandos the Red ]
     
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