A question to people with faith

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This is something that I have thought about quite a bit lately.

How do you all deal with the fact that more than 90% of all humans that have ever lived, lives and will live are according to your faith either condemned to a fiery hell, some other eternal damnation or atleast not allowed into paradise?

Not even most Christians agree about the way to avoid that. Protestants think that Catholics go to hell and Catholics thinks that Orthodox go to hell. I wont even go into all the branches of Protestantism.

As I see it, to have a strong and solid faith must be like having to see millions of people every day walking down a cliff and no matter what they say they dont heed you. It would drive me crazy and frantic and I would do everything to try to stop them from going off that cliff even if it would be no help. How do you who have a strong faith in any of the monotheistic religions deal with this issue?

 

Well, I'm an atheist but I have something I'll throw out anyways (admit it, you're shocked.)

I don't believe most believe what you've ascribed to them. I've grown up amongst Catholics in the US and I know most don't believe what you have said. I also have met a number of Catholics while in Africa and I really don't think they believe what you say Catholics believe.

So, I think a small minority actually have the beliefs you ascribe to them. That's my unsubstantiated position (but hey, unsubstantiated opinions is what we're dealing with here right?)

Now, sticking with Catholics since I'm most familiar with them. I suspect somewhere you can find something to support the belief you ascribe to them but when I've talked about this sort of thing with Fr. Chetok and Fr. Bell they don't agree with it. Lots of people are Catholic and believe the Church, Pope etc. A lot fewer though think that they should not use birth control. See what I'm saying?

I think your question is posed to a small minority. Math and others discussed this topic in the other thread. I'd just add that this to me really puts proelytizing in a different light to me and I've thought this for quite some time. I don't like 'obnoxious atheists' who are always attempting to undermine someone else's faith, it strikes me as terribly petty (I'm talking about elsewhere not here, I realize how that may sound but we've known each other via the boards long enough that I hope you know I don't mean you.) On the other hand, those proselytizing for a faith do so commonly from what I consider a more noble motive so I'll cut them some slack. You said above if you thought that you'd be frantic trying to help save the others. Well, I'd imagine you'd be proselytizing too then.

 

I have no answer to the question. It looks like you have made the decision already by making the 90% figure.

 

In the Orient in ancient times there lived a man who possessed a ring of inestimable worth. Its stone was an opal that emitted a hundred colors, but its real value lay in its ability to make its wearer beloved of God and man.

The ring passed from father to most favored son for many generations, until finally its owner was a father with three sons, all equally deserving. Unable to decide which of the three sons was most worthy, the father commissioned a master artisan to make two exact copies of the ring, then gave each son a ring, and each son believed that he alone had inherited the original and true ring.

But instead of harmony, the father's plan brought only discord to his heirs. Shortly after the father died, each of the sons claimed to be the sole ruler of the father's house, each basing his claim to authority on the ring given to him by the father.

The discord grew even stronger and more hateful when a close examination of the rings failed to disclose any differences.

The dispute among the brothers grew until their case was finally brought before a judge. After hearing the history of the original ring and its miraculous powers, the judge pronounced his conclusion: "The authentic ring," he said, "had the power to make its owner beloved of God and man, but each of your rings has brought only hatred and strife. None of you is loved by others; each loves only himself. Therefore I must conclude that none of you has the original ring. Your father must have lost it, then attempted to hide his loss by having three counterfeit rings made, and these are the rings that cause you so much grief."

The judge continued: "Or it may be that your father, weary of the tyranny of a single ring, made duplicates, which he gave to you. Let each of you demonstrate his belief in the power of his ring by conducting his life in such a manner that he fully merits -- as anciently promised -- the love of God and man.

-> God doesn't care about the name of any church.

(Lessing)

[ June 21, 2003, 20:15: Message edited by: Yago ]

 

The number 90% is simple based upon that I doubt that there are more than 10% of humanity that has the same faith. As I see it if you believe that something is truth, then everything else cant be the truth, or? I dont claim to be an expert, I am just curious.

What both Laches and Yago said are both ways to deal with this, as Laches said, many believe that there are other ways to grace and thus people can be saved even if they do not have the same faith as they themselves.

This is not an attack, this is a question. I know that if I had complete faith in one path of religion I would have to be totally convinced that it was the true way. If it wasnt my faith wouldnt be total, would it? But then I would be plagued by the fact that just a small part of humanity is on the same path. A correction, I cant really know that I would think like that this but I think I would.

 

Most Protestants don't think so. And Catholics believe it's actually possible for a non-Christian to be saved, not that religions are equally true even within Christianity.

In the case of Orthodox Church, Catholics actually recognise the validity of, among others, Orthodox Baptism, Orthodox mass, Orthodox Holy Communion and Orthodox Holy Orders and Orthodox Church recognises Catholic ones (yes, I've seen Orthodox people receive Eucharist in a Catholic Church, my church). With Protestants the matter is more complicated and differens per denominations.

 

I know for a fact my faith does not believe that. Quotes from holy texts taken out of context may make it look like that's what a church believes, but I doubt very many religions actually think that way -- like I said, I know for a fact that mine doesn't.

Joaqin, love ya, bud, but this is a straw man argument!

 

You cannot be condemned to hell if you commited a deadly sin if, at the time, you didn't know or accept the lord. According to priests, a man born in Burma will not go to hell because he was not christian. And he was not christian because he was born in a land where there are no christians (or are not ann overwhelming denomination)

 

It may be a straw man Depaara but actually as I see it, the fact that you see it as a strawman and that you dont think rest of humanity is damned forever is the most usual way to deal with this problem. In my opinion I also think it appears to be the best.
The problem just popped up in my mind as I read the topics about religion here and I got the impression that everyone that doesnt share believes are damned in the eyes of those that a strong other belief. I must have misunderstood it all, which I am grateful for. I would however like to hear from some more people and to have people think about it. Even if say all muslims think that all practicing muslims find paradise no matter denomination what about atheists or agnostics? I am honestly curious about this.
To take you Depaara I know you have been a missionary and I believe you did that because you wanted to save people. How did it feel to stop being one?

 

IMHO faith is a very personal issue and i don't think that God under whatever name we humans praise him is interested in what religion one is believing but if he trully lived a good life and an honest one. When we are going to be judged on whether we will belong in Paradise or Hell we won't be judged based on our religion but on our life.
The things you mentioned belong to the philosophy that existed in the dark ages and this philosophy was based on fear. Thank God in our days these thoughts are almost if not totally extincted i hope

 

I've had a number of fundamentalist friends who believe that only born-again Protestants are "saved" from hell, and it *does* keep them up at night worrying about the souls of strangers. It's why they do missionary work and why they make utter nuisances of themselves with people of other faiths. To me it's a good reason to be friendly and kind with the missionaries who come to your door; no matter how annoying they might be, they really are trying to save your soul because they think you're in danger. I have utmost respect for that kind of commitment.

Although one of my former friends is now both a Jehovah's witness *and* an insurance salesman. This is too much for me, and I confess to not answering the phone when I know it's her. The miracle of caller ID.

 

I often believe that people are more than capable of searching God, life, and the answers for themselves in time.

I wish I could tell someone straight up that my beliefs are the way to heaven/salvation/God, but come on. I somtimes wonder how people can bring others to their religion when I can't grasp the concepts fully myself. I'm an adolescent who can't even drive and spends his time playing CRPGs. Maybe it's just that - I'm just still young, and other people are too, and in time and in age we learn/accept/deal with the bigger things in life.

[ June 25, 2003, 02:56: Message edited by: Oaz ]

 

joaqcin, your whole arguement is based on the beleif that 90% of all humans that have ever lived, lives and will live are according to your faith either condemned to a fiery hell.

You see that the colour is not black, and have therefore come to the conclusion that it is white, disregarding the millions of other colours it could be.

I think you need to think on this thread a bit. As Lord Keldorn Depaara said, its a straw man arguement.

 

Alot of people seem to totally misread that 90% figure. My point with that is, which I have stated once before up there, that no 10% of humanity have ever shared the exact same faith. Thus according to someone atleast 90% of humanity should be damned one way or the other. Practicing and devout Shia muslimes thinks that atleast all non-muslems are atleast barred entrance into heaven. Jews think that christians are on the wrong path and barred heaven. Heck Jehova's witnessess even have a set amount of people being allowed into heaven, 100 000, no more no less. That is alot of people not gaining entrance into paradise.

So my point isnt that 90% is damned, my point is that as there are as many different faiths here on earth that there are, truly devout and pious people that are completely convinced that theír faith is the path to God must also know that all others that arent on that path is barred entrance into the good side of after life.

I really dont see where the straw man is, but as I have said, I am no expert. This question was asked to get an answer. The answer might be that the question is wrong but then I want more than "Your question is stupid".

 

Yago -- You have read the Decameron also. But I'm sure that Boccaccio had another source for that famous tale.

Joacqin - There is a difference between religion and Faith: If you try to find a road to God (religion), you will find it almost impossible. But if you just open your mind and allow for it, He will find a road to you (Faith).

Beware, organized religion almost always has its own agenda. But I suspect you have already figured that out. It's too bad that so many don't. As the saying goes: There has probably been more blood shed in the name of God than in any other cause.

 

Joacqin, while I agree with you that many Christians and Muslims - often misunderstanding the tenets of the religion to which they belong - believe that those of other religions/denominations are going to hell, I think you need to take Judaism off your list. Judaism is about obeying God in this life, not about possible rewards/punishments in the next. The promise of heaven and threat of hell are just not significant aspects of Jewish religious life, and it would be very unusual for a Jew to believe that someone of another faith was going to have a different afterlife experience. This is partly because Jews don't have the idea of "original sin" that can only be removed by adhering to a particular religion - in Judaism, we are all born pure and good. Also, Judaism does not encourage conversions unless you are a woman intending to bear the child of a Jewish man - either you are Jewish, or you aren't, and there is no penalty in this life or the next for not being so.

I don't think Buddhism or Hinduism tends to produce people who think non-believers destined for eternal torment either, but I'm not sure. In this day and age, I think it's mostly a Christian and Muslim issue.

Edit for Mithrantir: it's a question of emphasis. Christians and Muslims are very concerned with their souls and eternal life. Obeying God in this brief life is seen as a prelude to a more joyful eternal life in which there is no more struggle with soul-threatening sin. Obedience in *this* life is important in itself, obviously, but it will also benefit us in the *next* life. Obviously it's oversimplifying but true in essence. Whereas Jews do not have the concept of eternal punishment (hell), only a cleansing ordeal en route to a blissful state that we all share regardless of religious faith. Obedience is not significantly linked to consequence in the next life, it is more or less limited in scope to the present.

As far as your last question, I think frankly that you're a bit confused. Christianity and Islam certainly were influenced by Judaism but their notions of the afterlife are a much later creation. Around 0 BCE when Christianity was being born, Jews were still heartily debating whether there was an afterlife at all.

But this is off-topic.

[ June 25, 2003, 16:24: Message edited by: Sprite ]

 

Sprite are you saying that the other religions don't say that you must obey God in this life; I don't think so and in fact don't forget that Cristian religion as well as Muslim religion are based upon Judaism and the concept of hell and heaven was there before these two religions were ever born

 

@Sprite In my first post in this thread I stated monotheistic religions. Neither Buddhism nor Hinduism is that.
As for the jews, they think they are a chosen people. That they and only they are chosen for eternal bliss in the eyes of God. That is how I have understood it atleast.

 

As far as I know non-Muslims might still be saved according to Muslim beliefs. In most Christian denominations it's possible for a non-Christian to be saved under specific circumstances.

In another thread, http://www.sorcerers.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=000337;p=2#000057, I elaborated a bit on the subject and I hate repeating myself Warning: one of the longest posts I've ever seen.

 

So basically what you are saying in that post chev is that it doesnt matter what you beleive or dont believe, you can still gain entrance into paradise if you are a good decent person?

That sorta takes care of my problems, except for those billions of people that arent overly decent and good. Catholicism appears to be a very generous and accepting faith though. I also saw that Capstone didnt fully agree with you. I would love to hear what him and Math has to say on this issue.