About Leonard Peltier

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Well today on msn i found this headline two murderers running for president in California I don't know the other guy but the case of Leonard Peltier is known to me and i think it resembles a little the real incident that was described in the movie "Hurricane". I also made a search in google and found a big number of sites that support Leonard Peltiers freedom. I (may be prejustice maybe not) belive that something is smelling very bad in this case and according to these links something indeed does.
For example at this link of AIM this quote really made me wonder how democratic is this world.

And these words of Peltier from prison made me wonder if there if there is a masterplan behind the scene to purify USA from not-white people

Please share with me your thoughts and knowledge on the subject.

 

I think that it's hard to know for certain. You picked out sites that are 'Free Peltier' type sites. Conversely, consider the following facts asserted by another site:

So, 125 bullet holes. Both of them killed at contact range (i.e., execution style). Elsewhere on the same site it quotes the book put out by the Leonard Peltier Defense group as saying that one of the agents took off his white shirt and perhaps he waved it, "as a white flag in sign of surrender."

Peltier apparently says that he didn't commit the murders, Mr. X did. Who is Mr. X? I dunno, they talk all about debunking him on the site against his parolie:

http://www.noparolepeltier.com/brief.html

I don't know who is really telling the truth but a lot of the Peltier defense sounds a lot like a conspiracy theory: girlfriend subsequently withdrawing testimony that she saw Peltier kill the agents saying she was harassed, a vast conspiracy to set up Peltier etc.

And I think that is garbage.

[ November 04, 2003, 15:33: Message edited by: Laches ]

 

I don't know many of the details, but I do have to say that there is no excuse for shooting a peace officer at point blank range -- ASSUMING that is what happened, then this guy should rot in jail forever.

 

I'm not taking a stance on this because I don't know enough background knowledge, but I think that what Mithrantir is trying to say is maybe he didn't do these things, that he was framed, or falsely accused, which puts a whle new spin on things

 

Indeed, "Mr. X" did it. Who is Mr. X? Was there a Mr. X or was Mr. X made up as an ad hoc alibi?

This is where the debate comes from. And it's confused. For example, Peltier once maintained there was a Mr. X who shot the agents and he knew who he was but wouldn't tell. (June 12, 2000 Pacifica Radio, Democracy Now interview). Then he later says he made that up out of anger and doesn't know who Mr. X is. (June 25, 2000 Lee Williams, Argus Leader News interview.)

It gets worse, in his own autobiography Peltier never mentions Mr. X. And in an A&E biography Peltier says he just doesn't know at all who killed the men. As the A&E biography notes, all of the Indians identified at the shootout are accounted for but for the mysterious Mr. X.

Now, all the above comes from a site run by an X FBI agent against Peltier's defense so take it with a grain of salt if that's your like. However, Peltier's changing story is verifiable as it's his own autobiography and his own words in interviews.

When someone's alibi keeps changing, I am a tad sceptical.

 

Dowload the video "Freedom" by Rage Against the Machine. That's got tons of info about the Peltier case in it.

As for the FBI agent being a "Peace Officer", I think that's a joke. Two FBI's came onto the reservation and got into a fight about AIM, so a gunfight ensued and two an FBI agent died. Now, I really don't think he was "set up", but I don't think he should be in jail considering it was probably self-defense.

 

A self-defense gunshot wound through the hand and the face from point blank range? The shot went through the hand and into the face and killed him. I don't know how that happened but the first thing that comes to mind is somebody walked over to him with a gun, put the gun up to his face, he put his hand up to shield his face, and somebody pulled the trigger.

Executing two men =!= self defense. The fact that Peltier's defenders say, "I didn't do it Mr. X did it and even if I did do it killing two men from point-blank range with shots through the head with a high powered rifle was self defense" makes me think people don't understand what self defense is.

Edit - And while there don't seem to be any really unbiased sources, with the possible exception of the A&E story somewhat, I submit that an MTV music video isn't the most high-brow news source around.

 

Laches -- High Brow -- LMAO!

No kidding that trying to make this out to have been a case of self defense is a load of ka ka.

What I would like to see is some sort of independant investigation into things like this, by some neutral third party, like Interpol or something similar. I'm not naive enough to think that'll happen, but . . .

 

F*ck MTV! "Freedom" has never been on MTV. Besides, I was just saying that the song was about the case. Nothing more.

And about the case being self-defense, I was just going along with the whole conspiracy motif. Besides, the FBI isn't the most honest Bureau out there.

 

Yes it has. I've seen it.

And if going along with the conspiracy motif means going along with believing the 125 bullet holes and gun shot wounds to the head from contact range were all a set up.... maybe we should be sceptical of the conspiracy motif?

Contrary as always, Laches

 

Oh crap. I was confusing MTV with MuchMusic, it's canadian countrepart. Damn, now I'm an ass.

Anyhow, RATM is a fairly intelligent band. They don't really have any high-flying conspiracies they beleive in. There is alot of confusion about the Peltier case, so I guess nobody's wrong (that's what I'm hoping for anyway because I obviously am not an expert. )

 

Although i can't deny the fact that two agent of the FBI were dead (also a couple of natives which are conveniently forgotten), i am not convinced by what i have read so far from the authorities as far as it concerns the case and what happened there.
I think that noone can deny the fact that the administration of USA has a rather bad idea for the natives and does not considers them as first rate citizens (in fact today they are among the lowest. And this is partly because of the SAXONS and their conservative (that sometimes nears nazis) point of view in certain issues.
I as far as it concerns Leonard Peltier i believe that is indeed a conspiracy theory on the making here as with JFK and Area 51. Peltier was a leading member of AIM, which AIM has as ultimate goal the liberation and independence of the American Indians from USA. Now this would be a terrible strike at USA because it would strike the unity of the mix of nations that appart USA people. By jailing one of AIMs leading members as far as i can understand, would help to ensure that others would keep their voices a little more quiet. Maybe Peltier killed these agents but i think that FBI and police has no juristiction in reservations (isn't that what they are called?) without prior permission. So they were trespassing . How ironic the authority guys broke the will of the authority (Law).
I want to quote this only that i have read in Noam Tsomskys book (501 ad ?). Jefferson in one letter to a friend of his, wrote something like this:
....We proceed well choping down trees and Indians...... .
I did not know that Indians were in the same category with trees

[ November 11, 2003, 01:40: Message edited by: Mithrantir ]

 

No. The FBI does have jurisdiction on many Indian reservations and had more in the past. This jurisdiction is shared with the tribes and the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Unless there is state law enforcement jurisdiction on a reservation, the FBI has jurisdiction. They weren't trespassing.

And regarding AIM - it is a traditionalist Native group that was fighting (literally) other Natives. At the time they were fighting the tribal counsel of Pine Ridge.

You know, yelling nazi and racist isn't always the best way to engage in a conversation.

That's the first time I've heard Clinton called a racist btw: you know, US administration refusing to let Peltier out because it considers them a lower form of citizen.

[ November 11, 2003, 13:34: Message edited by: Laches ]

 

Well, heck.

I was going to ask what Che Guevera would think, but this is the Alley.

It's a really nasty little cycle in there. At some point you end up having to prioritize your resources. God knows America could stand to pump a serious amount of time and money into educating the Indians. But you'd have displace their identity in order to be able to make any kind of leeway on the issue. It's almost like the Middle East, but without the suicide bombers.



You know. Even in a cesspool, you can find areas of Red Algae blooms. And if you look at specific areas in the blooms, it really does look like everything else just wants the algae dead. E-Coli H157:O12 conspiracies...

 

It seems to me that either you haven't read my post carefully enough or you are prejudged against me.
From my previous post

Were in this i have stated that USA administration are nazis? All i said is that in some aspects their point of view nears nazi philosophy and this because of the SAXON and conservative nature of the policy that is being followed from the very beginning. I hope this is clarifying enough. And don't feel sad this is happening everywhere in the world (and especially in Europe) where conservative parties always have to face the ghost of fascism. You think that everything spins around USA only?
As for Clinton, what can i say? i don't think that him or any other president has the possibility to do something different than the dictated action, which was issued by lobbies (or factions) that work behind the scene but in reality do govern USA (BTW this happens everywhere but i guess you believe that it's not happening in USA).
And as for the treatment of American Indians in USA please spare me. You know it and i know and the whole world knows it how are they rated as citizens. Agian this is happening everywhere. For example here in Greece Romas are second rate citizens either by goverment policies, which the last three years are thankfully changing towards a better stance, or by the behaviour of citizens towards Romas.
The issue here has and another perspective, the original natives of America are being pushed down by the colonists, which now are claiming to be themselves the natives (i hope it is understandable that i speak for the whole continent). An issue that has many tendrils in the issues of everyday and not so everyday life. This issue MAY be one of these.

 

Say huh? In your first post you talk about a vast conspiracy to "purify USA from not-white [sic] people." Later, you make comparisons to Nazis, "And this is partly because of the SAXONS and their conservative (that sometimes nears nazis) point of view in certain issues." So, you start off with "racist" and move on to "nazi!" How that means I prejudged you I don't know. But it's neither here nor there except that people tend to respond better when you don't beging by essentially saying, "if you don't agree with me you agree with the nazi racists." I do like how you backed off of Clinton a little bit by the way. Now it's just the conservatives SAXON racist nazi who is controlling Clinton. (does that mean that all those white Irish and German and French etc. in power are not nazi racists or are they part of the conspiracy too? inquiring minds want to know. Also, where do white Americans fit in -- there is a point there somewhere.) For the record, Clinton had a mind of his own and was plenty willing to pardon those he thought deserving at the end of his term. He was a good but not great pres. and he certainly wasn't controlled by a bunch of racist nazis and anyone who says he was is a fool.

The rest of your post, in my opinion, is bunk. Let me be honest, I don't think you really have any idea about the issues facing the Native's collectively in the US today let alone the differences between the Tglingit and Cherokee. You state that they're treated as non-citizens or lesser citizens but at the same time major news papers in the US are running stories about the political clout that Native tribes have and referencing them as the modern "kingmakers." Do they face vast injustices? Sure. Are they due to a modern day plot to keep down non-whites? Please. All of that however is simply your way of distracting from the issue at hand I suppose.

If your uninformed paranoia is reflective of the average Peltier supporter then I think that tells me more than I need to know about the issue.

[ November 12, 2003, 16:20: Message edited by: Laches ]

 

Still you don't get it. I said NEARS (is close to,is better expression maybe) nazis not that they are nazis not that they are racists, and still you don't get the fact that conservative ideology is always near the right wing which at least here in Europe we have the in the extreme right the nazis nad near them towards the middle we have the conservative party. So where do people in USA put the fascists in extreme left wing? Please enlight me if you wish it seems that i live in a different planet. And in Europe always the right wing parties have a ghost of fascism hoovering over them. And yes, we all live within a vast conspiracy, being manipulated by our goverments in order to promote some dubious goals that most of the time serve only some minority and not the majority.

I never said that but it seems you want me to say this. I am sorry i won't, and especially for this subject.

I did not but you seem to think that only Clinton is involved but he is not the only President under whom Peltier was/is in prison.

Well there are not any white native Americans that's for sure secondly if you want to learn if there is a conspiracy there are two ways. Either become a part of it or find out about it. Feel free to choose if you have not already done so. And i believe that anyone who thinks that the ones that on the administrative positions govern without pressure or without being controlled from lobbies or any other hidden from plain view factions is either sleeping with his eyes open or he is fooling himself away from truth.
Anyway i say this once, read the posts of mine in this subject and understand that i do not flame countries i flame policies. And if you feel offended as a USA citizen then you must do something to never allow these policies be used again not only in your country but everywhere in the world. And by denying everything it does not fit to your view of reality does not help either you or the supressed ones. It helps only the guys up there who want you to be ignorant in order to do their job without problems.

They are treated as second rate citizens and you know it and they are referred as kingmakers maybe because of this trail of broken treaties where in short they want more or less an independed, in many issues, country. They have the advantage that the big majority of them (and they have numbers) is pro to such an action. Which of course is unacceptable by any USA administration. Right or wrong i won't be the judge of that. I guess you will notice the date this proposal was stated, so Clinton is way too late to be his problem.
As for the differences between tribes i don't know and i don't care, because these things are internal issues between them and do not correspond to this subject or to the American Indian rights subject.
This may have been out of topic allthough they may shed some light to the reasons Peltier may have been falsely accussed.
I want to tell you Laches though that i'd rather not to continue anymore this debate we have in the last couple of posts in this thread. If you have anything to tell me about me being a fascist in my opinion or the way i behave or why conservatives have so different views from fascists, feel free to pm me and we can continue our conversation through that way.
This topic was meant to be about Peltier.

 

And so far you haven't said much anything about him - other than that the racists are out to get the Indians.

I think this is the case because I'm not even sure that you've bothered to read your own link. For example, you write:

However, your own linked site says this is false. One Native, Joseph Stuntz, died and not two (a couple = two).

You stated that the FBI was trespassing and wasn't allowed on reservations:

But that clearly isn't the case. They have jurisdiction over most reservations. Further, in this case the two FBI agents were acting under the authority of a warrant. Even your own linked sites don't agree with your assertions.

You have stated:

So, it all boils down to a conspiracy theory. But if that's a case why can't I point out that the racist SAXONS conservative nazi paranoia is silly and unconvincing.

If you want to convince anyone, first, read your own linked sites. Second, you should check out the appellate decision. Then, once you know something else to say other than 'racist conspiracy' it'll be easier to talk about the Peltier case.

By the way, Clinton was that he was lovingly called by Peltier a "sleazebag" and that' part of the reason I brought him up. I also brought him up because it is particularly difficult to believe he is part of the vast right-wing conspiracy of racists or being controlled by them.

There isn't really anything else to discuss though. I mentioned elsewhere that if someone is convinced there are hallucinogens in the water and CIA plots and Area 51 houses aliens and... there is no point in a discussion.