1. SPS Accounts:
    Do you find yourself coming back time after time? Do you appreciate the ongoing hard work to keep this community focused and successful in its mission? Please consider supporting us by upgrading to an SPS Account. Besides the warm and fuzzy feeling that comes from supporting a good cause, you'll also get a significant number of ever-expanding perks and benefits on the site and the forums. Click here to find out more.
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
You are currently viewing Boards o' Magick as a guest, but you can register an account here. Registration is fast, easy and free. Once registered you will have access to search the forums, create and respond to threads, PM other members, upload screenshots and access many other features unavailable to guests.

BoM cultivates a friendly and welcoming atmosphere. We have been aiming for quality over quantity with our forums from their inception, and believe that this distinction is truly tangible and valued by our members. We'd love to have you join us today!

(If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us. If you've forgotten your username or password, click here.)

Afghanistan's election

Discussion in 'Alley of Dangerous Angles' started by Grey Magistrate, Oct 11, 2004.

  1. Grey Magistrate Gems: 14/31
    Latest gem: Chrysoberyl


    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    2
    Looks like all is mostly well with the election in Afghanistan -- very little violence and high participation. The weak boycott by Karzai's opponents is already crumbling in the face of public dismay (and the lure of cabinet seats for the first to endorse Karzai). Reminds me of Cambodia's election in the early '90s, where the Khmer Rouge threatened 'til they were red in the face about electoral violence but ended up powerless in the face of mass participation. 'Course, Cambodia's democracy was quickly strangled by infighting, and the same may yet happen in Afghanistan...Karzai may have Western-technocratic leanings but it's not clear that he will be democratic, or be able to assert sufficient control over the warlords. An election does not a democracy make. But given possible al-Qa'eda attacks in Egypt, the concern about attacks during the US November election, and the threats looming over a January Iraqi election, I think the peace of this election is good news.

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. Takara

    Takara My goodness! I see turnips everywhere

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Messages:
    3,598
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    2
    Well, there is the delay on counting, after large complaints about fraud. ;) However, since the election has been endorsed by international observers, I'll be happy with the result.

    Also, I too am pleased that there has been very little violence, and mass particiation. Whether it will continue this way remains to be seen, but a good start. The only disappointment in it all I had, personally, was the way Karzai still got the majority coverage. His backing by the States has allowed him to be seen as their best chance, and I would have preferred the US, and others to have stayed out of it all together, exspecially as far as endorsements go. But other than that, a good election.
     
  3. joacqin

    joacqin Confused Jerk Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2001
    Messages:
    6,117
    Media:
    2
    Likes Received:
    121
    It went better than feared but not perfectly. These first elections are not really very democratic or much of elections at all, they are just there to give Kharzai some legitimacy just like the possible election in Iraq will be there to go give Allawi a semblenece of legitimacy. What those two now have to do, well not have to but what we can hope that they will do is to continue working for democracy and perhaps even risk losing an election a few years from now.
     
  4. Abomination Gems: 26/31
    Latest gem: Diamond


    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2003
    Messages:
    2,375
    Likes Received:
    0
    I hope the candidates that weren't elected don't claim they have been wronged by some kind of 'heathen' system of government, gather their supporters and start violent protests. But that's probably a worst case scenario.
     
  5. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    23,653
    Media:
    494
    Likes Received:
    570
    Gender:
    Male
    Karzai is a puppet of the US who knows very well he'll only be on the top for as long as he dances to the tune played from Washington. So no fear of him trying anything the US wouldn't approve of any time soon. That he can't control the warlords is pretty obvious now, and will probably only get worse in the future. Once the US actually pull out from Afghanistan, Karzai's puppet regime probably won't last a month unless they give him a whole army to protect him.

    Of course, the US army is probably going to be there for quite some time to come, so nothing much is going to happen until the Americans move out.
     
  6. Takara

    Takara My goodness! I see turnips everywhere

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2004
    Messages:
    3,598
    Media:
    1
    Likes Received:
    2
    I'll probably get flamed for this, but IMHO, you can compare this to Chechnya, in one regard. A big super power is endorsing their puppet, and basically helping him become president. As soon as their back is turned, he'll probably get assasinated.
     
  7. Hacken Slash

    Hacken Slash OK... can you see me now?

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2003
    Messages:
    1,337
    Likes Received:
    1
    These are people who haven't voted in...well...hundreds of years. The women...maybe never. Try to overlook any fairly minor irregularities or Kharzai's obvious preference by the US government...and appreciate it for what it is ----- a major accomplishment by the Bush Administration to bring Democracy to a part of the world that had none. I know it's difficult for many of you to say that, but if you repeat it with me it won't be so hard. Al Gore woulda still been pressuring the Taliban Ambassador.
     
  8. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2003
    Messages:
    8,252
    Media:
    82
    Likes Received:
    238
    Gender:
    Male
    You wish, HS. If Al Gore was president it would be Bin Laden's lawyers doing the pressuring - trying to get Osama off death row.
     
  9. Pac man Gems: 25/31
    Latest gem: Moonbar


    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    2,119
    Likes Received:
    1
    Better one puppet who keeps the masses somewhat quiet, then a whole bunch of warlords trying to become the "uberwarlord". But true enough...when the foreign soldiers leave, the country will fall apart again, some people simply don't know any better.
     
  10. Grey Magistrate Gems: 14/31
    Latest gem: Chrysoberyl


    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    2
    Chandos is right, HS. You shouldn't underestimate Gore's smooth and silky charm when it comes to convincing recalcitrant regimes to cooperate. After all, it was during Al Gore's two-term tenure that he convinced the Sudan to turn over bin Laden, got Yemen to surrender the Cole bombers, talked Saudi Arabia into loosening up, kept Hussein from acting provocatively, talked the Dear Leader into dropping his WMD program, swayed Qhadaffi into surrendering his WMD program, supported the Palestinians with the promise of an independent state, and persuaded the Taliban to not destroy the Buddha statues.

    Oh...wait...
     
  11. NonSequitur Gems: 19/31
    Latest gem: Aquamarine


    Joined:
    May 27, 2004
    Messages:
    1,152
    Likes Received:
    0
    Let's hope this election can set some kind of precedent. I don't think the peace or the government will last after the troops leave, it's just human nature, but it's a start. The only way I can see to prolong the existence of the democratic state (apart from through military strength) would be to have the warlords fully engaged with the political process and willing to work within it. As Blackadder might say; "There was just one tiny flaw in the plan. It was bollocks."

    Hey, I'm not sympathetic to Bush's administration, but there has been some - *some* - benefit out of the policies they have pursued, even in Afghanistan and Iraq. That doesn't mean I agree with their decisions.
     
  12. ejsmith Gems: 25/31
    Latest gem: Moonbar


    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2001
    Messages:
    2,238
    Likes Received:
    0
    True.

    But, you know. We're still in Korea (South Korea, anyways). And in Japan. And Germany. And, uh. Britain. Puerto Rico. The Phillipines.

    Technically speaking, there's Czechs there, too. The UN has troops all over the place...
     
  13. Grey Magistrate Gems: 14/31
    Latest gem: Chrysoberyl


    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    2
    Maybe a better comparison is to the UN's Bosnia protectorate, where benevolent puppetmasters like Paddy Ashdown still hold sway over the nascent democracy. At least Karzai is an Afghan who was recognized by his people before the US arrived. Unlike in Bosnia, the US holds no formal authority to nullify electoral results, rewrite laws, adjust the constitution, or throw out officials. Maybe the US should ask Europe for puppeteering lessons.
     
  14. Chandos the Red

    Chandos the Red This Wheel's on Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2003
    Messages:
    8,252
    Media:
    82
    Likes Received:
    238
    Gender:
    Male
    Yes, I remember Clinton/Gore firing tomhawks into Bin Laden's camp. Two things were said by the "tough on terror" oppostition: First, why was Bill Clinton firing "a million dollar cruise missle at a bunch of tents?" (Of course, the Republicans never dreamt that it could have saved a couple of buildings, and countless lives in New York City). Second, that the attack on Bin Laden was not only a waste of time, but nothing more than a "diversion from the Monica scandal." And here, I bet you anti-Clinton guys thought we had forgotten. Try again.
     
  15. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    23,653
    Media:
    494
    Likes Received:
    570
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't really have a problem with him being a puppet of the US; the people there are definitely better off with Karzai than they were before. I was merely saying that the only way democracy is going to survive in Afghanistan is with constant presence of US troops. That's not really an accomplishment to be proud of. If the people there fought for their rights and to preserve democracy it would have been, but that's not happening... ever wondered why? Or why it isn't happening in Iraq either? One of the mysteries the present US administration will never come close to comprehending.
     
  16. Grey Magistrate Gems: 14/31
    Latest gem: Chrysoberyl


    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Messages:
    632
    Likes Received:
    2
    Two words: Follow-through.

    And the Northern Alliance doesn't count because...?

    They couldn't have fought for their "rights" or to "preserve democracy" because there was no democracy to preserve. Like in Cambodia after UN intervention or Haiti after US intervention, Afghanistan's nascent democracy could easily crumble. But it's still worth being proud of, even if it's contingent upon a US troop presence. Should we disdain German, Korean, or Japanese democracy despite its reliance upon US soldiers during the Cold War and beyond?

    That said, prospects for Afghan democracy remain pessimistic. But let's not dishonor what may prove their brightest point in the dark years to come -- or, perhaps, the dim beginning of an Afghan renaissance.
     
  17. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2000
    Messages:
    23,653
    Media:
    494
    Likes Received:
    570
    Gender:
    Male
    GM, you know as well as I do who contributes the most troops and without whose support Karzai would look like Swiss cheese due to all the bullet holes by now.

    When I said "If the people there fought for their rights and to preserve democracy it would have been, but that's not happening" I was talking about the here and now, obviously. They are no more inclined to fight to preserve the "wonderful gift" they have been given than the Iraqis are, just as they're not throwing parties in favour of Bush the Liberator.

    The comparison between Afghanistan and Germany is really too ridiculous to entertain, even though I'll give you a bit of leeway on the other two, but I'm sure you're well aware that South Korea is still hosting a significant number of US troops and has been enjoying billions of dollars US support - for how many decades already, and how much longer?

    Dim beginning is right, we'll probably both be dead before much of a renaissance happens. But then, compared to the Taliban regime, men being able to shave now is already viewed as a renaissance by some, so it wouldn't really take much for anyone to proclaim it happening, would it?
     
  18. Spellbound

    Spellbound Fleur de Mystique Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder Veteran

    Joined:
    May 2, 2002
    Messages:
    1,273
    Likes Received:
    8
    Gender:
    Female
    Well, the game is one of dominoes. Enter a country, engineer a fledgling democracy, pave the way for the Light and help them reach it for the next 20 years, whether the citizens want it or not. The US has been doing that for decades....it's nothing new. Vietnam did not want us there -- plain and simple. We did not listen to the French, who had been there for years before us -- with nothing to show for it, except a HUGE monetary drain and dead soldiers. Afghanistan is the same. Korea is the same. Iraq is the same. It goes on and on and on -- because US administrations feel that it's their god-given duty to enlighten the world. And if they don't want it -- what the hell -- force it on 'em! WE know what's best. WE are the guiding force for the world. In my opinion, there wouldn't have been much difference if by some weird twist of fate, Falwell had ended up in the White House. His flag at least would have probably been a replica of one from the Crusades -- but at least it says what it is -- the missionaries of the world. I'm not quite sure what the American flag stands for today. Could be the same thing.
     
  19. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2000
    Messages:
    10,416
    Media:
    40
    Likes Received:
    232
    Gender:
    Male
    I'm not so sure Korea should be included on that list. South Korea has plenty to show for it; it's somewhere in the top 15 world economies today.
     
Sorcerer's Place is a project run entirely by fans and for fans. Maintaining Sorcerer's Place and a stable environment for all our hosted sites requires a substantial amount of our time and funds on a regular basis, so please consider supporting us to keep the site up & running smoothly. Thank you!

Sorcerers.net is a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to products on amazon.com, amazon.ca and amazon.co.uk. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc. or its affiliates.