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American guns

Discussion in 'Whatnots' started by Shralp, Sep 21, 2001.

  1. Shralp Gems: 18/31
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    [​IMG] Ok, this is the most international board I post on, so I thought I'd ask you people this question:

    Yesterday the Federal Aviation Administration here in the U.S. RESCINDED their rule allowing pilots and co-pilots to carry firearms while in flight. Does this make sense to anyone?

    They have just assured anyone who wants to take over a plane that they will be the only ones armed. I cannot figure out how or why they would do such an idiotic thing, but then I approach it from a very American point of view. Any Brits or others want to give it a stab? How does this improve the safety of our flights?
     
  2. Zaragoth Guest

    [​IMG] I must admit that I..... think it's a pretty good idea.
    At least it's some defense. For the pilots, that is.
     
  3. Lokken Gems: 26/31
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    Hmm, can't say I agree, I think a better solution would be making the pilot cabinet safer, so you wouldn't be able to enter it from outside without certain pilot keys or some other device that the pilots have(could be a password as well). Of course the blockade/door should be able to withstand bullets and such
     
  4. Shralp Gems: 18/31
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    Yeah, it makes sense to make the cabin more secure (but then all they have to do is say "open or we'll kill your stewardess"), but let's keep it on topic -- doesn't it make it more dangerous to fly if they forbid pilots from arming themselves?
     
  5. Blackthorne TA

    Blackthorne TA Master in his Own Mind Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!)

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    I would say it depends on the pilot and his training in combat and firearms. I would rather have a sky marshal on board than an armed pilot I think.
     
  6. Extremist Gems: 31/31
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    [​IMG] Actually, I always skip anything that has one of these two words in title:
    1. love
    2. america


    Only thing I found kickass with such title was "America's least wanted" from Ugly Kid Joe - but that whole thing was a joke.

    Badly, I haven't noticed the topic title before I've read all this...

    However, because the content of this thread, I'm definetly sure that I'll continue skipping such titles in the future.

    No, I'm not attacking Shralp here. I'm thinking on that brilliant FAA new strategy. So, don't even bother to answer this post, I won't see it.

    Thank you.
     
  7. Sir Belisarius

    Sir Belisarius Viconia's Boy Toy Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder

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    [​IMG] Well, I don't think it's such a bad idea. Most US commercial airline pilots are former military pilots, so they should know how to use them. The main danger to having a gun in flight is the depressurization of the plane.

    I was also talking to a guy at the gym yesterday who was a fighter pilot in the early 60's. He said his fighter had a an auto-pilot/kill switch that would automatically land the plane without anyone flying it. And it was automatically programmed to land at a designated emergency airport closest to the plane at the time.

    If that were true, another good idea would be to have the same mechanism on commercial airlines. If someone were to try to take over the plane, the pilot could hit the kill switch and lock down the plane.

    Another thing I've heard is allowing flight attendants to undergo security training to help combat a takeover of an airliner.

    Realistically though, I think you'll see less hijackings of planes going forward. Mostly because I think you'll see more passengers fighting back in the future. The way I see it, you'll never know if the hijackers just plan to use the plane as a bomb - so I'd rather dictate the way I go out, rather than have some piece of shit terrorist dictate it to me. :nono:
     
  8. Shralp Gems: 18/31
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    The FAA rule already required the pilots to have training before they were armed. Now they can't even have guns if they're trained.

    So, Extremist posts just to say that he's not going to read a thread? Very helpful.
     
  9. Gnolyn Lochbreaker Gems: 13/31
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    I guess the reasoning behind that decision would be to prevent *any* firearms from being on a commercial flight. Hence, a potential hijacker would not be able to disarm anyone (or kill them outright) to obtain a firearm. Not really sure whether it will have any effect on safety though. I've never heard of a hijacking situation being prevented or resolved because a crew member had their own gun. And most hijackings result because the hijacker(s) were able to board the plane with a concealed weapon of some sort.

    A kill/auto-land switch on fighter planes in the early-60s? Not sure about that one....given that radar and locational equipment was still in it's infancy....you sure about this guy? He'd have to be at least in his 60s by now -- at least -- if he were a fighter pilot back then. Sounds a little 'fantastic', and I'm no expert, but that would be some 40 years ago, and there is no commercial equivalent even for ground vehicles (other than direction finding equipment).
     
  10. Lord Moeken Gems: 13/31
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    Not sure if pilots with guns are a good idea. This just give hi-jackers another potential weapon at their disposal. Lockdown of the cockpit sounds like it may have some merit.

    Hmmmm, the passengers fighting back raises some issues. I was thinking about this very thing while mowing the lawn yesterday. At first I thought to myself, 'If the plane was hi-jacked, then damn right, those bastards are in for a fight.'
    The only problem with this line of thinking, is that you may be needlessly signing everyone's death warrant. Don't get me wrong, I've actually visualized what I would do if I were on one of the ill-fated flights last week. But who's to know if the hi-jackers are going to kill themselves and everyone esle? Normally this wouldn't be the case. Just imagine if your girlfriend or wife or children were with you on the plane - someone starts a fight with the hi-jackers and suddenly everyone's life is in jeopary - perhaps needlessly.
    I suppose that if the pilots are killed or extracted from the cockpit, then the story changes, but until then you have to assume that negotiations are happening. Indeed a dilemna, one that I hope I'm never confronted with.
     
  11. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    [​IMG] I think armored pilots are an excellent idea. Commercial aircraft should be flewn by navy seals or green berets if you ask me. Since the very day the pressurized cabin was invented, there is nothing *cooler* than a shooting in an aircraft flying at 30.000 feet altitude ... :rolleyes:

    But wait ... :idea: how about to to controlledly crash a hijacked plane in uninhabitated territory to prevent a second WTC bombing? This is a more straight approach than destroying an aircraft indirectly by shooting bullets through the airframe ...

    To come to my point: There should be *no weaons at all* in a cibvil aircraft :nono:
     
  12. Shralp Gems: 18/31
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    Yes, no weapons at all would be ideal.

    But as we've learned lately, we can't have the ideal. People can and will be able to smuggle weapons on board. In order to deal with that reality, it makes sense to arm pilots.

    Yes, the depressurization of the cabin due to a missed shot is a severe hazard. It does not equate to instant death, however. And it is certainly preferable (for the pilots and everyone on board) to transforming into a jet-fuel missile.
     
  13. Sir Belisarius

    Sir Belisarius Viconia's Boy Toy Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder

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    [​IMG] I thought of something else as a potential tactic:
    First, have the cockpit entrance separate from the passenger entrance so that no one could takeover control of the pilots. Then,
    have cameras throughout the plane, and if the pilots see anything wrong, or if the attendants warn them, they can flood the cabin with some kind of knockout gas!

    Then they could land the plane, and have the Fibbies mop up - No one's hurt, Voila!

    What do you think?!?!? It's
     
  14. Lokken Gems: 26/31
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    [​IMG] I agree completely, and I must say the idea with the gas is brilliant, as long as people won't suffocate. I don't see any flaws in that one
     
  15. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    [​IMG] Good Idea Bel although it would completely change aircraft design, at least interior design. Actually I wouldn't really feel safe in the knowledge that I am just one click away from the gas chamber when I talke my seat in an airplane ... :shame: :nono:

    Well, arming the pilots .... :rolleyes: ... that is like arming high school teachers with riot guns to prevent high school killings.

    :idea: As a deterrant and in order to enforce their pupil's feeling of complete safety (and their personal safety) they should wear flak jackets, helmets, goggles and maybe entry shields as well ... yeah, gas would be cool too ... and tasers ... maybe some trained dogs and barbwire and bars at the windows .... :mommy: :flaming:

    To ensure complete safety you can turn everything in a concentration camp ... finally, though you may find it unsatisfying, there is not always a hardware solution for a man's problem and you have to live with that. You simply cannot ensure total safety. Sad but true.

    [This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited September 22, 2001).]
     
  16. Taluntain

    Taluntain Resident Alpha and Omega Staff Member ★ SPS Account Holder Resourceful Adored Veteran Pillars of Eternity SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) New Server Contributor [2012] (for helping Sorcerer's Place lease a new, more powerful server!) Torment: Tides of Numenera SP Immortalizer (for helping immortalize Sorcerer's Place in the game!) BoM XenForo Migration Contributor [2015] (for helping support the migration to new forum software!)

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    [​IMG] Even if the gas idea was implemented (and it won't be, so just theoretically), how many times do you think it'd be effective? Probably not even once. What's stopping the terrorists from bringing gas masks with them?
     
  17. Lord Moeken Gems: 13/31
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    [​IMG] In the words of Yosemite Sam "I like it! I like it!"
    I think the gas idea is a good one. So the passengers have a headache for a month afterwards, at least they are alive.

    "What's stopping the terrorists from bringing gas masks with them?"

    Well, for one thing it might be a little tough getting the gas masks past security. "I'm telling the truth sir - this is for my asthma"
     
  18. Sir Belisarius

    Sir Belisarius Viconia's Boy Toy Distinguished Member ★ SPS Account Holder

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    [​IMG] Well, I was thinking that you prevent people from bringing gas masks on, and when the gas is released, the same button locks down the air masks in the ceiling. If that didn't work, the pilots are still buffered from the passenger compartment anyway...At least terrorists wouldn;t be able to crash it into a building.

    As for the passengers...Don't flame me, but I think it would of those "the good of the many" types things. Anyway, I'm still working out the kinks...Thanks for the feedback though!
     
  19. sorvo Guest

    I think they should bring back the sky marshal, why did they stop it?
     
  20. Ragusa

    Ragusa Eternal Halfling Paladin Veteran

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    [​IMG] Moeken: Terrorists don't go through the customs controls with their kalashnikov to tell the officers "It's my hunting rifle, I'm going on vacation in beirut .... oh yes, and I have to pay toll for my two handgrenades ..." (even german terrorists with their strong sense for rules and order won't ... ;) )

    OK, you want to built in sleeping gas equipment into aircraft to prevent hijackers from getting control on the aircraft. They need arms to do so. They need to *smuggle* the arms into the aircraft, just like they would *smuggle* (means: avoiding controls) gas masks into the aircraft. So, even when incorporating the gas idea, the control problem remains. And even then: What if they are unarmed and trained in hand-to-hand combat ?

    Actually the idea of the sky marshal is a capitulation, a confession of incompetence, since it uncludes the assumption that control measures are futile anyway. Maybe it would be smarter to invest the money in modern x-rays and security checks for airport personnel.
    To come to my point: IMHO sky marshals are a populistic right wing move to calm down the population (see, we do something ... tough and decisive).

    As for the gas idea:
    I think it has some more major drawbacks: What will the passengers do in a case of an emergency landing ? I mean, sleeping as they are they may find it rather ... *difficult* :mommy: to use the emergency exits to escape a fire in the cabin. And to lock the emergency breathing masks is great as well: In case of a pressure loss at high altitude the sleeping passengers would probably suffocate helplessly :mommy:

    Will you build in 500 ejection seats ? Do you think about a wake-up gas as well ? You could also add some narcotica to the drinks on board, valium or prozac come to my mind ... everyone is happy, everything is groovy ... :rolleyes:

    :idea: Or maybe a conveyor belt (like in a butchery) delivering the passengers (wearing the trustworthy NASA standard astronaut suit) to the emergency exits to a rotating boot kicking the passengers out into the safety of 30.000ft freefall parachuting ... :) :rolleyes:

    [This message has been edited by Ragusa (edited September 22, 2001).]
     
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