An SP Roadmap For Peace

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Is peace truly possible in the Middle East?
What do you see is needed to obtain peace?

 

Tough question. Perhaps it would be a good idea if the US simply cut their military aid for israel. Have a look at Israel's airforces - about everything in their inventory is US made. More, especially in the current US administration there has been actve encouragement from the neocon block to israel to make a tougher stance, that is, assassination. Lack of US support would sooner or later force Israel to compromise.
There isn't anymore a risk that the neighbouring countries overroll it. But I want to hear the howling in Washington if someone suggested that.

However, it would force Israel into considering if the assassination of palestinian leaders is worth the hassle. In the end, the most radical palestinian fanatics are a product not of palestinian insanity or ideology but to a good degree of israeli repression.

The key obstacle anyway are both the Hamas fanatics and the extreme right israeli fanatics. The whole place would probably much calmer without them. These people are and will be eager to torpedo any peace initiative.

Nuclear disarmament of Israel would also be a great step to encourage other middle east powers not to seek for WMD themselves to compensate for their vulnerability.

 

I don't believe all Israeli and all Palestinians want to beat the hell out of each other. Now that the conflict has aged and worsened, many people are pushed towards extremism, in both camps. But I feel that, as always, only a handful of bastards truely wants this mess to continue, others would welcome the peace. Sadly, disarming Israel now could very well mean that angry neighbors will try to settle old scores and create further bloodshed.

So the roadmap? Dismantle the colonies, stop building that freaking wall, stop the daily humiliation and assassination attempts on Palestinians. It's Israel's move I think, not because they're "more wrong" or wathever, but just because they can, the Palestinian authorities can't control Hamas&Co. Creating an independent Palestinian state would only be a temperary measure imo, the two people are already separated by walls, fences, trenches and check-points, how would a frontier line on a map better things? [Dreaming] If they could just live with each other... perhaps a kamikaze will think twice before blowing up a mall in which Palestinians are walking freely. [/Dreaming]

 

An interesting articel on Israel, the Hizbollah, Syria and why they keep fighting:

http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h-col.html
http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h070602.html

PS: It is from www.antiwar.com which usually provides a nice compilation of daily news and according polemics.

 

I am very pessimistic about the situation in the Middle East, mainly for one reason: religious fanatism. The way I see it, everybody wants to get a hold on Jerusalem, which, if I am not very much mistaken is the holiest place for jews and the second holiest for muslims. IMHO everything else stemmed and swelled from there, but this is the knot that has to be undone before reaching peace. Is it ever going to happen ? Will one of the two parties let go ? I do not know, but I find it hard to believe.
But I must add, I understand very little about the political and military situation in the Middle East.
Just my personal opinion.

 

As Oxymorone said, the ball is in Israel hands, and again not because they are more in the wrong but because they can. The Israeli government have the power to enforce its decrees and to atleast somewhat control its extremists. Whatever remnant or semblance of Palestinian authoritive there is have no such power over Hamas, Hizbollah and other such groups.

As I see it Isreal has to put a rein on its pride and hate and take the first big steps to peace, cede the territories that are illegally occupied and really work to create a Palestinian state. That is the only way they will ever get rid of the bombings in their streets. At the same so should the Palestinians who are tired of this mess really step forward and work to create a strong state of themselves. I am aware that the extremists groups will try to stop any process that doesnt drive the Israelites in the sea but the only way I can see to truly root them out is to make sure they have no popular support at all amongst the common palestinians (which they have now as the Palestinians are a people under occupation with little to none freedom) and a Palestinian government who are capable to catch and trial the madmen as the criminals they are. Isreal can assassinate and kill off any number of Hamas people without it doing much good, it is first when the Palestinians are themselves both willing and capable of taking them out we can get rid of them. And as I said, for that to happen Israel not only need to let the Palestinians have their own state, they need to help them to create it.

This is what I think is the only solution to the problem, of course this isnt as easy as it sounds but it is a nice plan.

 

I'd be more than happy to see the U.S. taking a more neutral role with Israel. We give them way too much support. Unfortunately, it's never going to happen. Israeli lobbyists and PACs (Political Action Committees) are some of the best funded and most well organized political entities in the U.S. Which is sadly why we tend to take their side in things.

My feeling has always been to do this:

Israel relinquishes control of the occupied territories.

Jordan cedes some small portion of it's western border to the State of Palestine for an equal amount of land that will be taken from Iraq.

Jerusalem is declared a free city with a triumvirate governing body of Christian, Jewish, and Muslim clerics on the ruling council (this would probably be a logistical nightmare due to all the various sects of each religion...but I'm wishing, so let me have it!). Or the city is governed by some neutral faction like the U.N.

Everyone lives happily ever after.

 

Peace is like virginity, once it is lost, it is lost forever.

 

Peace in the middle east is impossible. Israel is surrounded by nations that wish for nothing more than their destruction. The Israeli people live with the threat of their annihilation constantly.

This may be controversial, but Adolph Hitler is the only person who has kept the pseudo-peace for as long as it has. The issue is that no Israeli wants to be known as the next Hitler for committing genocide in the middle east. I live in fear that someday an Israeli will decide that for the safety and peace of the Israeli people he/she will be willing to be villified throughout history and start the final Israeli/arab war.

People blame the Israelis for fighting back, trying to assassinate leaders, bulldozing homes, etc. People also blame the United States for helping to support Israel. Lots of people seem to think that Israel is the problem. Well here is novel thought. If the arabs would get together and say "You know, we haven't been the best of neighbors. Let's start over as friends." and then all of the bombing stopped, and all of the sniping stopped, and all of the violence stopped, my money would be that Israel wouldn't feel the need to do all the things that they are villified of.

The Arab people are on borrowed time. They have bred their children into hatred. In time that hatred will breed hatred into the Israeli children. When that happens their may be no more Arab children.

 

I'm surprised so many people think Israel has much power to change the situation. Israelis, by and large, are OK with the idea of a Palestinian state. But virtually no middle-eastern Arabs are willling to tolerate the existence of Israel whether they get a Palestinian state or not. It's not just a Palestinian issue. Western access to Saudi oil is based on an agreement that Saudi Arabia will never recognise a Jewish state as legitimate. Saddam Hussein, not normally viewed as a Palestinian hero, funded anti-Israel terrorism. Yes, I think Israel should get out of the illegally occupied territories. But I don't think it will help - it will just put them back on the high moral ground and perhaps win them a bit more western support.

 

All financial support from anywhere for both Israel and Palestine and no more weapons. Then a common sense approach to who can live wherever depending on birth place rather than ancient or modern history.

But it's all a dream, there is too much at stake and far too many megalitres have passed under the bridge.

 

The Palestinians, are trying to remove there military, but I think it would only get worse, my suggestion is to give the Palestinians speaking and voting rights in the UN.

 

I don't think that voting in the UN for the palestinians would make sense. Their arab peers have spoken out for them and eventually Arafat was allowed to speak there even. In the end there are numerous (ignored) UN resolutions about Israel and Palestines, demanding Israel to leave the occupied territories.

Israel gives a sh*t because they are under the shelter of the US veto in the SC.

I mean, that's really one of the points the arabs list for a US double standard. Iraq probably violated against one or two UN sanctions and the US go to war against him. Israel violates some 20 every day, and they receive billions of US military aid. Voting rights for palestinians wouldn't change anything.

US involvement is key to this conflict. Because even when the rest of the world disagrees and boycots Israel even, as long as the well lobbyed US support them this madness goes on.

 

It'll take a meteor. A fairly large one. If it's terrestrial, they'll want revenge. If it's God/Allah/Buddah/Lucifer/Queen Mab doing the cutting, there'll be the token uprising and cussing, but it'll die down in a noteworthy amount of time, and people will start looking toward their future as much as they look at the past.

Survival.

It really puts a new spin on things.

 

I'm just saying that the Palestinians deserve a voice without going through a mediator.

 

I doubt there is anything Israel could do, except die, to make peace with any of the surrounding countries. Think of someone backed into a corner with a bunch of guys around. What's he supposed to do. Now think that if the guy had a gun, while the other ones have knives. Should he shoot?

 

Why most of you people are with the impression that everyone in the area is after Israel? Why do you think that all these states live with the dreams of Israels total destruction? Can't you understand that Israel was planted there and from the first years all this state did was grabbing land and whining to the West that the barbarian East is out to get them. Have you read the history of Israel and Palaistine? Have you seen that Israel has seized over 25% of the palaistinian territory for settlement and stuff. Have you seen that every "peace-plan" is coming out as an idea is giving more to Israel less to Palaistinians?(this means that in every plan Israel has more gains than in the previous plan and Palaistine less). Do you know that there are decisions of the UN security counsil for 30 years now urging the Israelian army to leave from the Palaistinian territory and guess what they moved in deeper.
So don't tell me that the Israel is the weak of this case please. Israel has the power but has not the will to do something to clear this mess. But they will never do it as long as they have the biggest military force, history has seen so far, under their influence. And that is where the change must be done. Either noone or everyone in this region much have the same amount of help and support from the USA but this too is wishfull thinking.
I fear that there, things will never quiet down enough because we are humans and one characteristic of the human race is greed . Meaning that noone is willing to lose and noone is willing to get stuck with the short end of the stick.

Peace is not an outopistic feature in this region, it only requires will from all participants.
This fear you are talking about is what they want the West to think. They don't live under that fear in fact they have started to behave like Hitler. Trying to purify "their" territory

 

This is from The history guy This page shows conflicts between the Arab nations (as a group), and Israel. As a rule, a legal state of war has existed between Israel and her Arab enemies since the beginning of the first war in 1948. Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel in 1979, and Jordan made peace in 1994. The Palestine Authority, headed by Yassir Arafat and his Al-Fatah faction of the Palestine Liberation Organization negotiated a semi-peace, which, from mid-2000 on, has been destroyed through the "Al-Aqsa" Intifada violence. Other Palestinian groups, most notably Hamas, have been at war with Israel continuously. Although Israel and most Arab nations are technically in a continuous state of war, unless otherwise noted, specific outbreaks of fighting are considered to be separate wars.

To me that qualifies as wanting someones destruction.

Without a doubt Israel is not weak. It is only Israeli's strength which has enabled it to survive as long as it has.

You are correct Israel lacks the will to commit genocide to solve the conflict.

You are also correct that Israel has grabbed land whenever it could. The original intent was always to create a DMZ around themselves. Of course human nature takes over and they turned into settlements instead.

I stand by my original statement. The only faction in the middle east that can create a lasting peace is the Arabs. If the Arabs would renounce their terrorist/violent ways Israel would have no reason for reprisals and peace would be achieved.

To continually blame Israel for attempts to safeguard their own nation/citizens is ludicrous.

Possibly the worst thing that could be done would be the United States cutting off financial support (as suggested by more than one person). If that would happen Israel would probably grow nervous and I am having trouble thinking of something more dangerous than a nervous Israel.

 

Well, It didn't begin 1948. The list only includes collisions after the founding of Israel. The British promised during WW1 the Arabs for their help versus the Ottomans independent states. They promised also land to the jews. So, clashes between Arabs and Jews began, while finding out what those contradictory promises should mean precisly.

 

I think that you missed something in the link you so kindly provided to this thread

Notice something funny? After 1973 no attack on Israel was made but Israel did attacked agressively on two nations that are Arabian and furthermore at the time they were attacked have enough problems already other than Israel.
I don't count Saddams last attack because beside the fact that he was put in the far far corner by all Arab nations long before the gulf war 1 started, this action was condemned by all Arab nations. Since they knew it was a desperate move to lure them into a war against his attackers, which among them included Arab nations. So don't tell me that the Arab nations want now Israel vanished from the map, they have their own domestic problems and these are far more crucial to them than the existence or not of Israel. And to tell you one more thing Islam as a religion is a peace loving religion even if this sounds strange. And in Quran Christianism as well as Judaism are respected as religions and how could not they be, since all three religions are connected to each other in more than just the One God principle.
But when they see that their lifes and beliefs are threatened they will never wait their doom to come, they will fight and they fight worst than us because their do really believe in self sacrifice for the cause.
And as i said in my previous post it requires WILL from BOTH sides to see this bloodshed to an end. But the first move MUST be done by the Israel. They are provoking, so they must make the first step. I say that both sides have made mistakes but the Israel has the means and the power to start a process for real peace.
You said that Israel lacks the will to commit genocide to solve the problem, as if i said that. Well you misunderstood me. I said Israel IS commiting genocide even now trying to solve the problem from their point of view (who the f**** cares for a bunch of starving near dead Palestinians) and every "assasination" they make is with the use of missiles and maschine guns often not killing the target but instead killing surely some innocent Paestinians (even children) who had the stupid idea to think that they can go out of their house. They do not allow them to work on their fields in order to produce food, they do not allow them access to water they in general resemble Hitler and his idea of purification. That is what i said.

[ September 17, 2003, 18:27: Message edited by: Mithrantir ]