Anyone else think Demogorgon was much too easy?

Remove all ads!

I mean, I'm not even halfway through ToB and I'm already thinking of Ascension as something I should try.

I beat Demogorgon with no spells or buffs. Just Improved Haste on Keldorn. For the Prince of Demons he sure does blow.

And I thought he'd be bigger.

Are all the bosses weak like this?

[ December 06, 2003, 00:19: Message edited by: Taluntain ]

 

Demogorgon is a huge disappointment in terms of power. I would suggest at least one ToB run before Ascension, though.

Also, Ascension buffs all the bosses except one--I think it's Sendai IIRC. The Oversight mod has a buffer version of her so you might want to consider it as well.

 

For sure. I'm going to run through this game, then install Tacticts, Ascension, Oversight, and any other mod that'll make it at least challenging. I mean, no buffs? C'mon! For a fight to even be worth it I should have to use Mass Raise Dead!

It should be like fighting the Shadow Dragon with a level 8/9 party.

I'll have to see what the rest of the game is like though. I'm currently in the Marching Mountains fighting some badass Fire Giants with Whirlwind attacks. Some good fights in there. Reminds me of IWD

Oh yeah, BTW... didn't Watcher's Keep just smack of IWD clone?

 

No.

 

Watchers Keep is simply a dungeon crawl. You could make it into a game in itself but the XP requirement would make it interesting.

 

I don't think Demogorgon was too easy -at least after I had installed the original big D and tuned up the difficulty. Quite balanced in fact; you just might be a real harcore player.

 

The reason I say that Watcher's Keep is like Icewind Dale is that the Keep is very uncharacteristic of BG. Most of their dungeon crawl had a good story behind it, but Watcher's Keep's was kinda flimsy. I'm not saying it was bad. On the contrary, it was pretty fun (I liked the puzzles). I'm just saying. Doesn't it remind you of IWD1?

 

Watcher's Keep is very lacking in terms of NPC interaction and story. I was especially disappointed that Haer'Dalis didn't have more to say about the demons and the Blood War, given his tiefling heritage.

 

He is quite easy yes but I think there are some official patches or so that make them harder, actually, when I first fought him the things he summoned were the ones who were the real pain in the ass. Watchers keep just ownz though ;x

 

There are no particular hard points in the vanilla game, especially with a paladin. You want a challenge? Fight demo with a beast master. Honestly. If your gonna use overpowered classes (basically every class in bg2), youll get results. Fighters are godly unless you fight demo out of chateu irenicus. Mages same. Blah you get it. Fight him at low level, with weaker classes or get some tactics and other stuff like I did. Then hes semi tough and you can still use your cool abilities like time stop (actually dont) and watch him run around, being immune and all.

Honestly I beat demo with 2 comets and a few slashes when i played him my first time and was a complete newbie.

 

I've finished BG2 so many times now (I lost track) an I'm STILL a complete newbie

I don't think the problem is the classes been too over powered it's the AI Been too weak, I mean look at the Twisted Rune quest Mencar pebble crusher, the party in the Guarded compound and the sewers party, It's easy enough to kill all these people almost as soon as you start chapter two, when all these other parties are a good 3-5 levels above your party .\

If these were player vs player battles then I could see some very good fights even later on in the game, the trouble is though that I can't see how the AI can be so well scripted to act perfectly to every possible thing you could do to them short of heavy pre-buffing. Anyone here know how to write AI scripts?

 

If you want to make it more difficult, just increase the difficulty of the game. Or for a real challenge, blindfold yourself.

(I am not entirely sure, but isn't re-writing the AI illegal?)

 

Just dload tactics. And ascension and sola and all that crap from wiemer. Tactics makes the game truly superb, you actually learn to be catious and not charge into every fight, happily cutting things to pieces.

And yes the classes are sadly over powered compared to the enemies. Cmon, a master shade vs a party of 23-24's? Fire giants vs 25's?

 

jaguar: I meant creating new scripts which is legal as far as I know.

 

Demo is easy, given the right number of people and the right class. If you increase the difficulty, you simply increase enemy damage - which will not necessarily make the game harder.
I agree with Casey, what this guy needs is a killer AI. (ala Draconis - IMO, the smartest enemy there is in ToB.)


@Stifestrike
I agree as well. The monsters in ToB are powerful, but at least half of the classes overpower them. Maybe they should assign classes to every monster then?

 

Which is the point, cmon you beat a master shade with 24s? Master shades dont just die like that. Master shades would give some of the weaker mystras chosen (Aluastrial (sp?)) trouble. And dragons, there was only one hard dragon fight in vanilla BG for christs sake. By the time you hit abizgal (sp?) dragons are like what gnolls were to you back in BG1 when you were level 2 or 3. No need to buff, **** no need to do anything, just stroll in, time stop, improved altric and 9 magic missles plus two abi dazaams and ole abizgal is dead, then gww with 1, yes you only need 1, be it keldorn, sarevok, or god knows who, fighter or ranger or watever to clear an entire chamber of dragon servants and hordlings. Cmon!

In BG you kill at least like 1% of faeruns dragon population. I mean jeezus, no biggy right?Lets see what else your characters kill with ease that 99% of mortals in the world would have problems with. A pit fiend? At level 9? Sure no problem, never mind that pit fiends are the greatest of the batzuu (sp?). Demo of course, cant forget him. In vanilla bg ive killed demo with some decent tactics with a level 19 sorcerer and his party before. Honestly this game is ridiculous in terms of character power. Then you get into the mods which let you kill gods for fun.

Even in vanilla bg you lay the smack down on bhaal most powerful avatar, ok so bhaal i still a fallen god, but you killing a ravagar is like killing that avatar of rhilafain that appeared in the temple in Sudelessendar. Shouldnt be possible, but there ya go. Lets just throw elminster in and kick his ass as well, we really have nothing better to do after all.

Admittedly this is more the fault of terrible ai then poorly adressed abilities of all these creatures im talking about. For instance tactics firkragg is a excellent fight, and a equal level party to yours in eclipse fight was just amazing. Its up to good modders to make this game a challenge, and wes is definetly king in this aspect. He has worked hard to make this game fun as hell, and with Ascencion by team bg (i think?) this game can be hard an fun the whole way through, but overall BI's AI sucks.

 

Overall the BG AI that Black Isle or whoever did the "AI" sucked, I've just started Ascension I've fought Illisara twice and lost and my party is
Blade
Jaheira
Aerie
Imoen
Potentially an uber party but I'm a bit unprepared in some things such as spells that I need & I'm playing insane, how much harder will they get than Illisara and Gromnir? maybe i should beat them if I can and quit while I'm ahead.

Anyway the point of what I'm saying is that Asc AI is excelent Feels almost like going against a human player, so great job to Weimer for creating such an brilliant mod

Also I have an idea for a good ToB end challange, Instead of taking on the five altogether make it one at a time BUT give each individual a full party each of the most over powered classes(F/M's, Blades, Sorcerers(esses),Kensai's etc.) and make them all top level, and just give a short while between each fight to heal and reorganise like 10-15 seconds.
So in other word's turn it into a Mortal Combat fight for the earth style battle

 

@Scythesong...

Draconis is smart (going invisible and healing himself) but I still beat him on Hard with no buffs or haste on my party.

Same with Abizigal, Balthazar, Illesara, Yaga-Shura, etc.

@ casey...

The Ascension Mod was made by David Gaider, an employee of Black Isle during BG2.

And that challenge you're talking about... just wait until the Ascension's Mellisan. heh heh.

 

I agree. Given the end movie in Shadows of Amn and the complete disjoint in Throne of Bhaal, I have a feeling that a full Baldur's Gate III was in construction, but was scaled back to allow better sales of Neverwinter Nights.

Officially, Black Isle said that the people in end SoA movie are the Bhaalspawn in ToB. But it just takes a few moments to realize this is not the case.

Watcher's Keep has the feel of 5 very different quests being stuck togather with a minimal of plot.

But, overall, ToB is very fun. Just don't walk away from game like I did after Watcher's Keep. (I came back and finished it).

 

Bioware's AI scripting was poor...when they wanted an uber-powerful monster they anti-cheated to achieve the effect (Anti-cheat is when the computer cheats it's own rules). Examples of this comes from various mages and dragons, who insta-cast (not Spell trigger's BTW), and some monsters who summon more than the summon-limit.

There have been lots of people who have attempted better AI scripting (it's not illegal BTW, Bioware encourage it by providing the script compiler and the overide directory). The community monster scripting is usually hit and miss. For instance someone may write a new script for Kangaxx which counters the methods they used to beat him, but for someone else who used a different method to beat him it would make no difference.

Covering all options like this is a mammoth scripting task, not only does it require good AI scripts, but the scripting language used is clunky and needs workarounds for various actions...for instance 'threat assessment of an enemy' is possible but is very clunky.

Some of the best AI scripting is when the scriptor uses 'advanced techniques' which he himself would use in a battle. For instance, casting Spell Immunityivination and then going invisible, this technique is used to great effect by players...and it was nice to see Westley Weimer (I think) incorporate this type of thing into his improved tactics for enemies to use.

Here's some scripting which Bioware should have used by default:-

Enemies can follow you...even through doors.
Enemies can rest and hence re-acquire their spells (they don't actually rest but a script timer can be set so that if the timer expires they get the effect of resting)
Enemies that can tell when your party is buffing up just out of sight.
Enemies that can effectively communicate with each other.
Enemies that know what their weaknesses are, and how you will attempt to exploit them.
Enemies that when blinded won't just stand around as if you don't exist, but will actively search you out, or run to a safer place.
Etc..etc..