ApR, main-hand/off-hand ratio and haste effects...

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Another question for the experts...


Let's assume two cases:

A) A fighter (level 13) dual-wielding two "normal" weapons.

B) A fighter (level 13) dual-wielding a "normal" weapon in the main-hand and a weapon (like Belm, Kundane or Scarlet Ninja-To) that grants an additional attack in the off-hand.
Furthermore, presume that the fighter has two proficiency points in the weapons he uses.


So, the number and ratio of attacks in these two cases should be (as far as I know):

A) 1 (main-hand weapon) + 0,5 (2 PP) + 0,5 (fighter-level > 6) + 0,5 (fighter level > 12) + 1 (off-hand weapon) = 3,5 ApR (2,5 with main-hand weapon and 1 with off-hand weapon)

B) 1 (main-hand weapon) + 0,5 (2 PP) + 0,5 (fighter-level > 6) + 0,5 (fighter level > 12) + 1 (off-hand weapon) + 1 (bonus attack FROM off-hand weapon WITH main-hand weapon) = 4,5 ApR (3,5 with main-hand weapon and 1 with off-hand weapon)

Please be so kind to correct me if I am wrong.


My concern is the following: I'm rather clueless what happens when the number of attacks per round is boosted by spells (Haste, Improved Haste) or HLAs (Greater Whirlwind). I'm aware how many additional attacks I get, but I don't know the ratio in which the main-hand and off-hand attacks profit.


1. What happens exactly when casting Haste?
The number of attacks is still capped at 5. Haste increases the ApR by one. Always main-hand? So 4,5 ApR (3,5 with main-hand weapon and 1 with off-hand weapon) in case A and 5 ApR (4 with main-hand weapon and 1 with off-hand weapon) in case B?

2. What happens exactly when casting Improved Haste?
The number of attacks is capped at 10. IH doubles the ApR. Does the old ratio before IR remain? 7 ApR (5 with main-hand weapon and 2 with off-hand weapon) in case A and 9 ApR (7 with main-hand weapon and 2 with off-hand weapon) in case B?

3. What happens exactly when activating Greater Whirlwind?
GW sets the ApR to 10. Frankly, I use GW not enough to guess at all what the ratio between main-hand and off-hand attacks is. But I do know that combining weapons which grant bonus attacks with GW leads to rather bizarre results. I have experienced similar problems, when combining Melf's Minute Meteors with Belm/Kundane/Scarlet Ninja-To in the off-hand or the Blade's Offensive Spin.

 

3) GWW sets number of attacks per round to 5 then Improved Hastes the character for a round.

If you are dual wielding then you end up with 4 apr main hand, 2apr offhand. I don't believe apr increasing weapons massively affect this, only slightly reducing upon the 10apr so you'd be better off de-equiping the offhand weapon for the whirlwind.

 

One major thing to note: You only ever get one attack per round with the off-hand. Ever. No matter what. (There have been many arguments, but I'm more likely to believe modders like Drew than players.) So whatever your ApR is, 1 goes to the off-hand and the rest go to the main hand. Even GWW or Improved Haste still doesn't get you 2 attacks with the off hand. This answers all of the questions.

(Though I'm not certain that Haste really gives you exactly 1 extra attack in all cases. Most of the time I only get half.)

 

Unfortunately the effects of the haste opcode are hardcoded into the engine--player's observations (or guesses) are just as valid as a modder's since we can't look up a definitive answer.

That being said, all tests I've seen on the effects of haste have been consistent in only one aspect: the off-hand never gets more than one attack per round. There's also a great deal of uncertainty as to what happens when a character with split ApR (3/2, 5/2, etc.) gets hasted.

AFAIK there's been no definitive formula for ApR discovered, though there's been a lot of guesses.

 

Finally found some time to do a bit of testing of my own. And guess what? My observations seem to contradict most of what has been said before.

Haer'Dalis was chosen to volunteer as guinea pig for this little experiment. Haer cast Protection from Normal Weapons and hoped for the best expecting the worst...

First, I set my Fighter/Mage - wielding a normal katana in the main-hand and Belm in the off-hand, 10 attacks per round under the influece of Improved Haste - loose on Haer'Dalis. Result? 4 x "My weapon has no effect!" (normal katana in main-hand), damaging hit (Belm in off-hand), 4 x weapon ineffective, hit, 4 x weapon ineffective, hit and so on. Seems pretty obvious that Improved Haste does keep the old main-hand/off-hand ratio which means that the off-hand can get more than one attack per round, namely two.

After that, Korgan - wielding a normal axe in the main-hand and an enchanted hammer in the off-hand - unleashed a multitude of Greater Whirlwinds on poor Haer'Dalis. The result was exactly the same like before. GWW with two weapons seems to work the same way like dual-wielding with 10 ApR: 4 x attack with main-hand, 1 x attack with off-hand, 4 x attack with main-hand, 1 x attack with off-hand.

 

Just as an aside am I right in saying that you can only get x5 per round - unless hasted, GWW etc?

 

@ Ascendency-Down: very interesting, if not surprising. I suppose it could be theorised, that the effects of Improved Haste and GWW get by 5 A/R ceiling by squeezing two attack rounds into the timeframe of one, so that the same coding that allows greater 10 attacks also gives an extra off-hand attack. Which would make sense, if you think about it.

@ Chelsea: yup. Improved Haste and (G)WW can both boost A/R to >5, no other methods can. Normal Haste just adds one attack, so if you're within 1/2 an attack (i.e. 9/2) of the maximum you'll only get an extra half attack, not the full bonus.

 

hmm.. some very interesting comments!
so you get a max of 2 attacks on the off-hand, vs. 8 attacks from the main-hand max with a scheme of 4-1-4-1 -poor HaerDalis found it out the hard way!
So this pretty much makes clear how to equip when dual wielding: max dammage and best weapon in good hand; ability enhancing, special powers in the off-hand. (flail + crom is a good combo)
It's a bit sad though that if the off-hand weapon gives you an extra attack, you don't get this attack with the off-hand.
A question for you guys:
In general, would you rather dual wield, or single wield with an excellent shiled giving you a -4 AC bonus? Hard dilemma sometimes for me, although bashing and slicing through ennemies with two hands full'o steel is fun