Awkward party advice

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I'm thinking of going through the game again, this time with characters that I have little experience with, to get a taste of the stuff I've been neglecting. I might also want to try and become a Good God of Murder for once.

For the main character I was looking at either of these:

• Monk
• Archer

I plan on starting a multiplayer game so that I can also play the other one. Which one would be more interesting as the main character?

For the NPCs, definitely:

• Haer'Dalis
• Keldorn
• Cernd

And one of these:

• Minsc
• Valygar
• Mazzy

Seems rather tank-centric... and I won't be casting Project Image. *sniff* Now that will certainly take some getting used to, but that is the point.

Any suggestions for a somewhat novel experience with this lot?

 

A monk is definitely a solid choice for a tank, even though he doesn't look it in the beginning. As he levels, he'll be super quick, get ever-improving AC (he'll likely have the best AC in the group by the time you get to ToB), gets a bunch of cool abilities, oh, and at level 14, his magic resistance is set to 3*character level, so 42 at level 14, and increasing from there.

The archer never really did it for me. Yeah, they are powerful, and yeah called shot is great and all, but more of a finesse sniper type character than the kind I like to play. Plus, if you pick Mazzy, you'll already have a great archer. (Of course, Mazzy is a grand master in short bows, so you could certainly make an archer specializing in long bows, or even cross bows (Firetooth).

Keldorn rocks. He is, IMO the best NPC in the game. Haer Dalis is decent enough, and gives you some source of arcane damage. Minsc is Minsc, meaning he's worth having.

The only concern I have is Cernd. He's kind of gimmicky as far as I'm concerned, and I never really liked him. Single classed druids are seriously underpowered in the game IMO. Sure, they get some impressive HLAs, but so does Jaheira, and she can actually, you know, be useful. The problem is you can't cast spells while shape-shifted. So you have to chose whether or not you're a caster or combatant in each battle. Doesn't sound like a big deal at first, but I found this aspect of Cernd very limiting.

 

It doesn't matter if your main character will be the monk or the archer, the should benefit about the same from the Bhaalspawn abilities.

The archer is already a ranger so Minsc won't add much, Valgyar will add backstab and a few mage spells while Mazzy has some special abilities, she levels faster and therefore gets more proficiencies and HLAs.

In a combat-oriented party of 6 Cernd is more useful than Jaheira, the main purpose of the party druid is casting high level druid spells and the game will be almost over when Jaheira reaches level 15.

 

Yes... I suppose +1 to hit and damage every 3 levels alone does not make for a game-changing experience. Alright, Mazzy it is.

Or even darts. Check this out:

Assuming a level 18 Archer with Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise and the Girdle of Frost Giant Strength (if need be)...

• Azuredge (Proficient): 2 attacks at 1d6+3+2+9+6 = 47 damage per round.
• Fire Tooth +5 (Grand Mastery): 2.5 attacks at 1d8+5+2+3+2+6 = 56 damage per round.
• Taralash (Grand Mastery) with +2 arrows: 3.5 attacks at 1d6+2+3+2+6 = 58 damage per round.
• Sling of Seeking (Grand Mastery) with +2 bullets: 2.5 attacks at 1d4+1+2+3+2+9+6 = 64 damage per round.
• Short Bow of Gesen (Grand Mastery): 3.5 attacks at 1d6+2+1d8+3+2+6 = 74.
• Crimson Dart (Specialization): 4.5 attacks at 1d3+3+1d2+2+2+6 = 74 damage per round.
• Tuigan Bow (Grand Mastery) with +2 arrows: 4.5 attacks at 1d6+1+2+3+2+6 = 79.

I guess all those fancy Throne of Bhaal bows aren't worth much.

Really? Wow... gotta try that, then. What's so great about him? I'd have thought he was just another meat shield, albeit one that can dispel magic and wield Carsomyr.

Again, just another meat shield in my mind. I'd want to bring him along just to see how he gets on with Lilarcor. I always wanted to use that thing, but it never happened. I guess Valygar is out, then.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I pretty much never cast any Druid spells after the first round of combat. Cernd should be free to do his thing. Not that this party needs another tank, but I'm willing to finally give Cernd a shot.

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...and healing, I fear, though I do have a lot of Lay On Hands going on.

Yeah, being a single-class druid does mean he gets over that annoying level 14-15 bump a lot easier. Jaheira needs 6 million Experience to really shine as a Druid.

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Alright, unless anyone else has any advice to the contrary, I'm thinking of this party:

• Monk
• Minsc
• Keldorn
• Mazzy
• Cernd
• Haer'Dalis

What's good mid-to-late-game equipment for this bunch?

Haer'Dalis seems to have a mysterious Specialization in Short Sword that has to be used, so Kundane is pretty much a given, and... some other short sword. Or maybe Crom Faeyr in his off-hand.

Mazzy should get the Tuigan Bow, I suppose. Dunno what she needs for up close. She kind of butts heads with Haer'Dalis over the short swords, and there aren't any fantastic short swords to begin with. Dual-wielding and shields are too much of a hassle with a bow, so maybe learning halberds is the thing for her. I never used those, but Dragon's Breath and Ravager both seem decent.

Keldorn, Carsomyr or... Purifier? Anything else?

Minsc, after Lilarcor... Gram? Or dual-wield some combination of Storm Star, Belm and Crom Faeyr?

 

I wouldn't call Keldorn a meat shield and I wouldn't try to make him one even if he had the Gauntlets of Dexterity, but his Inquisitor abilities are awesome against mages. Carsomyr is just another big plus. He's fine using his own sword, Redeemer +2 I think, until he gets Carsomyr.

For Minsc, just get Lilarcor.
You can give him Dragon's Breath +4 or a ToB two-handed weapon when they start popping up. Minsc with Lilarcor is my default setup since lots of casters in the game cast Confusion though alternatively can have him dual wield Flail of the Aegis, Daystar, Celestial Fury. If I was running your party I probably wouldn't forge Crom, I'd distribute the +str items to everyone in the group.

Mazzy's pretty straightforward - Tuigan and Gesen. Gesen is significantly more powerful later on in the game since you can use normal ammo with it. Whirlwind/GWW also negate Tuigan's enchantment.
Short swords is the the most versatile weapon type in the game. There's Kundane, Arbane's Sword (Free Movement, Haste user once per day), Llbratha (Mirror Image), Sword of Mask (Entangle, chance-based but no save) and the Sword of Backstabbing/Cutthroat (+3 and +4). Except for Cutthroat all of these swords are easily accessible and all but the last two have powerful enchantments.
In your case it might be best to have the option to turn her into a sword and shield user when the situation calls for it, like when you're forced to battle and both Cernd/Haer have run out of fodder spells.

Haer'Dalis is my favorite NPC. I usually give him Tuigan. If you want him to melee I guess you'll want to use weapons which give bonus attacks per round, but the strongest one is only a +3 wakizashi (or ninja-to?). That's scimitar proficiency, which is fine since it opens up Belm. The two **'s in short swords isn't worth going pure short swords over in late game, unlike Mazzy Haer won't get fighter HLAs.
Note that Haer's caster level increases the fastest out of all NPCs - bear that in mind as you pick his spells. Later on in the game use Mislead/Simulacrum to conjure an image to use the Enhanced Bard Song HLA for you.
With Tuigan Haer will have 4 attacks per round using just Offensive Spin, with Improved Haste he can reach 6 attacks per round or even higher with bonus attacks per round items . Combine that with Tenser's Transformation and you have one heck of an archer. Use Offensive Spin after Improved Haste, the attack per round bonus doesn't stack.

Cernd is a very powerful NPC.
As far as spells go though druids are natural mageslayers thanks to the insect line of spells. They'll be your the strongest casters for most of early-mid game thanks to spells like Call Woodland Beings (a spell that basically summons a lvl 10-11 enchantment-focused mage with an AoE heal, druids can cast this at level 7), Entangle (which works indoors now), and Conjure Fire Elemental (Fire Elementals can hit anything in BG2, even Kangaax). At late game they get spells like Harm, Creeping Doom and Nature's Beauty. Nature's Beauty is save or die spell that ignores spell protections and permanently blinds even on a successful save. Even works on dragons if you can get around the magic resistance.
Cernd gets these spells earlier - significantly earlier than Jaheira, plus a few more castings. Ultimately though they play very differently - unlike clerics, druid spells have a stronger focus on offense magic than buffing/support magic. Give Cernd a staff with a powerful enchantment like the Staff of Fire or the Staff of Thunder and Lightning.

 

Keldorn is just baws. Instant cast dispels + Carsomyr? Yes please. I always found having to cast dispels from my mages etc very annoying if I didn't have Keldorn in my group. Definitely the best party member.

I always found Haer'Dalis just dies too easily. But that was probably me being too lazy to cast his defensive spells. Cernd, I don't think I ever actually had in a group for a length of time.

 

Alright, let's do the easy ones first:

Monk - fists (with Gauntlets of Crushing)
Keldorn - Carsomyr (make sure you spend your next two proficiency points in two handed weapon style to double your chance of a critical hit)
Mazzy - any of the short swords are fine, but you're going to be using a short bow 99% of the time, so Tuigan/Gesen are the way to go. (Btw, when I equipped Mazzy with Tuigan, she got 5 attacks per round.)
Cernd - chances are you aren't sending him into combat unless he's transformed, so you'll have claws. If you prefer to keep him out of harms way and cast spells, you can equip him with a missile weapon. Slings, darts, or throwing daggers - take your pick. (I'd probably go Fire Tooth.)

Which leaves Minsc and Haer Dalis, which brings up some interesting possibilities here, as there is actually a choice for both of them.

Minsc starts with two proficiencies each in long bows, two handed swords, maces, and two weapon style. So you can go either way with him. I typically like giving him his next two proficiency points in either flails or axes, and have him dual wield. That's not to say you couldn't dump your next two in two handed weapons and use Lilacor, and later pick up halberds (no rush as there's no halberd that would be a superior choice to Lilacor early in the game). The one big plus of equipping a two handed weapon is you can also equip a bow for when you want him to use a missile weapon.

With HD, you also have to pick. In this case it's dual wielding versus missile weapons. You CAN use him in melee. As soon as you get him (on a permanent basis), you'll pick up Melodic Chain. That with stoneskin is enough for combat purposes, but just try to get enemies closing to melee range to focus on a higher hitpoint character. Later on in the game you'll pick up Bladesinger Chain, which can be upgraded in ToB to +5 chain, with immunity to non-magical weapons. Those are pretty much the only two armors you'll use, as you're still going to want to cast spells. (And obviously, you'll use these two armors regardless of whether you go melee or missile.)

Anyway, with either Kundane of Belm in the offhand, HD can achieve 3.5 attacks per round, which isn't so bad. Even if you don't like short swords and end up equipping some other weapon in your main hand, he'll still get 3 attacks per round. Offensive and defensive spin are obviously useful.

(On a side note, I DID have HD tank Firkraag while using Defensive Spin. I wasn't by design, I just misclicked, and activated the defensive spin accidentally. He was rooted to the spot, so he wasn't knocked back by the wing buffet, and then Firkraag closed into melee to attack him. Since I couldn't move, I just attacked back. But with the +10 bonus to AC from defensive spin, Firkraag couldn't hit him. Eventually the other party members helped out, but HD stood toe-to-toe with Firkraag for a couple of rounds without getting hit.)

The alternative is bows. Unlike thieves, bards CAN use long bows, and since Mazzy will be taking whatever the best short bow is, if you go this route, I'd recommend dropping HD's first proficiency point into long bows. Darts and throwing daggers are also an option.

 

blades are very good but require micromanaging to really excell (using spells, items, and especially the spins). The defensive spin can make him an instant tank and with free action you can move but as I said they are less useful if you tend to just attack and let things play out.

Keldorn is so awesome due to the dispel that WILL save your butt more than once. Think of a time where you had one or more party members stunned, charmed, dominated, or otherwise made vulnerable. With keldorn you get to say "oh no you didn't and remove the problem. In addition truesight is always nice to have and having as many as he possesses you can memorize less with your casters. The holy avenger is just icing on the cake (though sweet buttercream icing mind you).

 

Btw, I meant Cernd is a powerful NPC not because he's a Shapeshifter, but because he's a druid. The druid forms are situational at best (anyone else used Jaheira's wolf form for carrying extra weight?)

The Greater Werewolf form has very good stats but not so much by the time you usually get it. Reason being the druid XP/level progression, which is pretty bad in SoA (Level 13 - 750k XP).

 

Thanks for the answers, y'all! If I don't respond to something in particular, it's not because I didn't take it to heart.

My play style is rather conservative. I throw little to no spells in random fights and I try not to rest much. My parties often complain of fatigue.

I also hate having to open the inventory to switch between bows and shields. I really like the Shield of Harmony, though, and I would like to squeeze it in somewhere... but that means either throwing axes, throwing daggers, slings or darts. Keldorn gets Carsomyr, so no shield. Mazzy uses a bow, so no shield. The Monk (who I will name Xi-Xi, following a long-standing tradition of Xyx clones), Cernd and Haer'Dalis can't use shields (until Use Any Item, at least.) That only leaves Minsc, but that just feels wrong.

I found that confusion isn't such a killer. Sure, it's annoying, but confused characters rarely get into serious trouble, and you can easily get away from them and wait for it to wear off after you kill the baddies. The same goes for panic. It's charm, stun and hold effects that I worry about. Chaotic Commands helps (great for exterminating Mind Flayers), but you don't get many of them. It has a decent duration (*cough*Negative Plane Protection*cough*) but it doesn't last forever.

Yeah, I guess that's more practical.

I read that it would deal both the lightning arrow damage and the regular arrow damage, but when I tried it out I couldn't see what the big deal was. If I loaded it with Acid Arrows it'd do a few points of acid damage on top of the lightning arrow, but with Arrows +2 nothing seemed to change.

The Sword of Mask seems nice, but none of the others is particularly appealing as a main weapon. Arbane's Sword combines nicely with Web spells, but the more dangerous critters tend to be rather resistant to that.

But what else is he good for in melee?

Ooh, yeah, that's a good trick. But Simulacrum? He only gets up to level 6 spells, and not a whole lot of those either.

I'd hope so, because it takes him 1.76 million Experience to cast two level 6 spells. Edwin can do that several times per day starting at 0.375 million, and he would probably be just as good if he used Melf's Minute Meteors with the Crimson Dart to fall back on.

It seems more effective to just cast Improved Haste on the tanks.

What good is entangle? I can see the applications of maybe entangling some melee critter and turning it into an archery target, but it's very unreliable.

Is there no stuff that helps him while he's shapechanged?

Odd. It should a base 2 for bows, +1 for Tuigan, +1 for being a level 13 warrior, +0.5 for Specialization. Did you perhaps have the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization?

...which is my usual play style. Guess I'll have to adapt.

Ooh, yes, that was a nice trick!

I never liked Dispel Magic. It would get disrupted, or people would move out of the area, or it'd dispel my stoneskins, or it just plain wouldn't do anything... but I guess Keldorn's version doesn't suffer from any of those problems. So yeah, I can see why he's good to have.

No, I usually can't wait to get her an item to fix her attrocious Strength.

 

No, but I do have the grand mastery fix which adds the extra half attack, so there it is.

It has no casting time - so yes, it's fast - and uninterruptable. It WILL dispel good effects and bad effects. As for not doing anything, you shouldn't see that problem very often, as inquisitors cast dispel at twice their level. So pretty much everything that can be dispelled will be dispelled.

 

I'd consider giving axe specialization to Minsc so he gets a comfortable ranged option with Azuredge (long bows require arrows) and can use the Axe of the Unyielding +5 later.
This way he could also wear a shield, the shield of harmony offers more protections than Lilarcor.
If you want to stay 2-handed for roleplaying reasons consider having him use halberds instead of Mazzy.

Mazzy could use the Flail of Ages as blunt option. As fighter with many Whirlwinds she could attack 10 times per round in spite of the free action the +5 version grants. Single weapon style would both help with shortswords and flails.

Keldorn is simply crossbow, Carsomyr and quarterstaff for clay Golems.

The other 3 characters can't specialize and get a new proficiency every 4 levels so they should be able to handle everything.
Get the crimson dart +3 (more powerful than any longbow) and the returning throwing daggers for them (maybe the sling of Everard too) so they can use ranged without worrying about ammo early.

Haer'Dalis only gets +1 to hit and +2 to damage and no extra attacks for weapon specialization, so don't restrict him to short swords only.

It will be annoying not having anyone to pick locks or disable traps in the party, getting 25 str for bashing locks might be reason alone to build CF. and Haer'dalis won't be able to cast many buff or disabling spells, especially if he needs spells like knock, mirror image and stoneskin.

 

Specialization gives an extra 1/2 attack, so you could pump HD from 3 to 3.5 attacks per round if you use a short sword main hand, and something that gives +1 attacks per round in offhand.

 

Only warriors get an extra half attack for weapon specialization, rogues don't.

 

I was unaware of that...

 

I thought swashbucklers got the extra half attack as well....

 

Yes, that sounds right.

Nah. In fact, good idea to have Mazzy specialize in halberds.

It always bothers me that the fixpack Free Action effect disables the Boots of Speed, though I suppose it is for the best. However, since Haer'Dalis could use some Free Action to go with his Defensive Spin anyway (slight cheese, but I'm fine with that), isn't the Flail of Ages a good match for him?

Oh, yeah... blunt.

The Crimson Dart, yes.

The throwing daggers... Firetooth is sold in Ust Natha, so you can't get that early. The other one, Boomerang, is the reward for the Limited Wish adventure. Can't get that early either unless you just kill Captain Dennis and skip the quest.

That's so weird... why would he have that extra star, and why wouldn't the same rules apply to non-warriors?

Haer'Dalis will need to fill many holes. I expect his spellbook to look like this:

1. All Magic Missile.
2. All Knock.
3. All Minor Spell Deflection (to absorb the traps the Monk will find.)
4. All Stoneskin.
5. All Animate Dead (Bards get Skeleton Warriors way earlier than Clerics or Mages), assuming Keldorn makes Breach unnecessary.
6. Improved Haste, Mislead, Protection from Magical Weapons, Contin- ***ERROR: OUT OF SLOTS***

 

I've found part of the fun of the game is the NPC interactions. The interactions of Minsc with everyone are good, but the ones with Keldorn are some of the best. Any party with Minsc and Keldorn should include Jan as he is a riot with these two. Jan keeps trying to take Boo and insults Keldorn (especially after being raised from the dead).

Minsc, Keldorn, Cernd, Jan, plus a spot for the NPC of the moment.

HD is really good with Aerie -- they get into a love triange with a male PC. Pretty funny stuff and you can even kill HD (Aerie doesn't like it if you kill him though).

 

Sounds like a good idea.

The Boomerang dagger can be pickpocketed. But that's not necessary since you'll want to do the limited wish quest very early, just buy a wish scroll (the scroll seller in Ribald's shop has one IIRC), use it and start with the quest before leaving the city for Trademeet and getting Cernd.
There's no point in scribing the scroll since you'll never be able to memorize level 7 spells.

 

They should but they don't. Must be due to the engine as perhaps extra attacks of that sort are related to the fighter bonus attacks in the engine.

For Cernd I think it is best to dual wield with belm and the like in the off hand. Then have him shapeshift to greater werewolf and cast dispel magic on him. If you have a vanilla game doing so will remove the claw icon and return you to using weapons which makes cernd much more dangerous. He will still suffer a bit due to being a warrior OR caster and not both but I find him effective if you use that tactic (and honestly werewolves can choose to wield weapons and you could drop your weapons and shift in PnP so this is not actually cheesey though some may feel otherwise).

Another bard trick late game is to cast mislead and have the image sing. Especially with epic music this can be a great boost and then your bard can still attack or even stack songs.

And I believe the "true" grandmastery mod gives you an additional full attack on top of specialization (or at least the one I had did though I did remove that option since at the time I thought it was implemented incorrectly). So going grandmaster gives a total of 1.5 extra attacks per round over your normal attacks as a warrior.