Combat Thief or Stalker?

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I was looking at creating a combat thief, for sneaking and backstabbing. Not too worried about traps and locks.

The choices are
1. Thief
2. Assassin
3. Bounty Hunter
4. Fighter/Thief
5. Stalker

I have left out Swashbucklers as they cant backstab.

It strikes me that the Stalker is a pretty good option. Great stealth, great HP, great THAC0, dual-wield, ranger spells and backstab. I would say very much like an improved Fighter/Thief/Cleric with swords. Surely they are hard to beat by the other types of combat thieves.

Everyone also seems to discount the Bounty Hunter, but don't the extra traps help take down enemies quicker and can't they be thrown which gives extra flexibility to a combat thief.

So maybe it's time for the Assassins and Fighter/Thieves to move over for a couple of more interesting classes!

 

It's just a matter of preference; assasing + invisibility potions = r0x0r, whereas more fighter-oriented thieves (swashbuckler) are more all-around characters. Pick anyone of them

 

1. Thief
Very weak choice.

2. Assassin
The improved backstab modifier is IMO marginally important. The poison weapon ability is a whole other deal and can be put to good use.

3. Bounty Hunter
I never use traps (in SoA). Traps are too cheesy for me.

4. Fighter/Thief
Very good choice. Since a single class thief is a waste it makes sense to multi or dual class a thief.

5. Stalker
This is just a ranger with an ability to cause extra damage due to backstab and I think it's out of place to compare this to a thief.
Stalkers are very good though.

If that is the case then Fighter/Thief, Stalker and Thief/Mage are good choices.

Sneaking can be handled with greater safety by magic: Farsight, Wizard Eye.

Don't discard the thief abilities disarm trap and pick lock, they give plenty of xp besides saving you from some embarrasing and harmful moments.

 

@Earl Grey: I was comparing a Stalker to a Combat Thief, rather than a standard thief. If you had a stalker you would need a back-up thief for traps and locks, which you would get with Immy anyway. From the point of view of stealth/combat I think they are highly comparible, plus they have some support priest and mage spells to help.

Does sanctuary count for backstabbing?

I hadn't really thought of a mage/thief as a combat thief. More because of the strain on stat points needed for int/wis means more important stats will suffer. Some familiars are great for sneaking around as well.

 

A Mage/Thief could have stats like this:
Str 9
Dex 18
Con 16
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 9

Use a Girdle of Giant Strength to improve strength.
What do you want high wisdom stat for?

Don't know about sanctuary, but it ought to work. A Cleric/Thief restricts your choice of backstabbing weapons somewhat.

 

In sanctuary,you can't attack

 

@Argohir: Which is the same thing which applies for Invisibility...the minute you attack, the invisibility breaks...though you can still attack (and backstab successfully)...

Sanctuary causes backstabber to disappear, and reappear when his blade gets planted into the other guys back...which is the principle of a backstab...

HENCE, I would say Sanctuary does work...

 

@Earl Grey: wisdom would be for the Wish spell, but I suppose this could be attended to by potions. As a mage/thief you would have even less hit points than you would normally, although, the familiar might make up for this?

 

Um...when you are a mage/thief...you don't really need to worry about hitpoints, because the minute you start taking damage...you're dead anyway.

The trick is to use your spells and stealth to keep from taking any damage at all.

 

I'm with Earl Grey on this. A fighter/thief is a MUCH better option for backstabbing than a ranger. For starters, I think the stalker maxes out his backstab at X3, while a fighter/thief goes to X5. Plus, a fighter/thief can do all sorts of other cool things that a stalker cannot do, and quite honestly, his THAC0 won't be all that much worse.

Also, a mage/thief multiclass is a very strong option.

Sanctuary does work - I'm playing a cleric/thief right now. You still need a strength enhancing item because your THAC0 isn't very good though.

It really isn't a fair comparison anyway. A stalker is a fighter with some thief abilities, while assassins, and bounty hunters are theives with some marginal combat ability. Actually when you say "combat" thief I think Swashbuckler, even though you eliminated him because of the inability of backstabbing (which technically isn't true - they can backstab, it's just that thier backstabs don't improve with levels like the other thieves).

 

In SOA, the Stalker would have the better THAC0 and would hit far eaier. Would the F/T gain x5 backstab in SoA?

There is no questions that in TOB, the F/T wins hands down. But you have to get there first.

Glad to hear Sanctuary works, this makes the stalker a bit more versatile. Does Sanctuary get detected by truesight?

The mage/thief is powerful and I have used one before (it was a great game), but I didn't feel he had the same combat abilities as a standard thief or F/T.

A munchkin-like Kensai dualled to Thief would also be a potential option. I would dual at L7, to make the most of the thief abilities.

 

Unfortunately, sanctuary does not protect you from true sight, unless you are using some other item, such as the cloak of non-detection.

I'm not positive but I think the thief backstab table looks like:

1-4 X2
5-8 X3
9-12 X4
13+ X5

So you would certainly hit the X5 in SoA. In fact, it wouldn't even be the end of SoA. Thieves level very quickly, and I think level 13 occurs at under 1 million XP.

EDIT: I just checked the XP tables. First, the levels are correct - you max out backstab at level 13. Secondly, level 13 occurs at a paltry 660,000 XP. So even if you're multiclassed, that's still only 1,320,000 XP so you aren't even half way to the XP cap. That's early SoA.

 

I would go for Swashbucklers still. HP boost, some better thac0 than your common thief, abysmal AC better weapon proficiencies, no hiding and backstabbing stuff...

But since you seem to like the hiding and backstabbing, Swashbuckler may not be the best class for you.

 

He did say he was totally against Swashies...I can see why too...no point in having a thief if he can't backstab...its stupid.

@Bard:An interesting idea occurred to me...instead of playing a Mage/Thief multiclassed character, you might want to try out an Assassin/Mage...give him a shortbow and use Poison Weapon ability...backstabbing when you need some heavier artillery.

Dual-classing at lvl 13 (if you want to re-activate the thief bits in SoA) or lvl 21 (for the 7x backstab) to a mage, would be uber-cool. AND it would be definitely less munchkin-like than a Thief/Mage.

 

If he only has SoA (and given the forum he's posting in, that's my assumption), the dual-classed option isn't worth it. First of all, there aren't enough XP's in SoA to go to level 21 as a thief, dual-class to a mage and then make it to level 22 mage. Even if he has ToB, he won't be able to reactivate his old class until very late in the game.

For level 13, it should be possible to get a thief to level 13, and then dual to a mage. Again though, he wouldn't have access to both classes until late SoA.

 

Yes, I am aware of that. I just thought he wanted something different, so I just posted an idea I had, is all. Because, the Mage/Thief has been a bit overdone, and the Assassin/Mage is not as munchkiny, but its cool as well. Is all.

 

I have been surprised by the number of people advocating (nice big word being used!) the use of mage/thief. My experience on these boards in the past was that everyone didn't like mage/thieves. Although I think the NPC mage/thieves aren't that great, which has something to do with it. I have used a mage/thief myself and loved it, just didn't think he was great in combat - would you use Jan in combat?

I don't really want to dual-class either. To get good thief skills you need to be at least L11-13 and then it will be ages before you can get your thief skills back, for which you will be living without your combat thief.

It does seem that popular consensus is that Assassin and Fighter/Thief make the best combat thieves. Bit dissapointed that no-one likes bounty hunters or stalkers much.

I am intrigued by the thought of a Cleric/Thief. Do you get 2 weapon slots in SoA for a cleric/theif (you only got 1 in BG1)?

 

I disagree. I've played thieves many times (except as main character) without using backstab even once throughout the whole game.

A thief's main role is, as the name suggests, thievery, and that would be picking pockets, picking locks, disarming traps and the like. Backstab is just an added bonus. It doesn't make a thief.

 

You have Yoshimo/Imoen in the game who can handle any traps/locks you might find. What the game lacks is what I would term a combat thief. Later in the game you skills will all be high enough to handle traps/locks as well, but earlier in the game you can concentrate on scouting and early strikes.

 

@ Bard

You get two weapon slots. I went for slings and clubs, mainly to get the one handed fighting style that scores critical hits on 19 or 20. The only drawback is early in the game your THAC0 is pretty bad. There are ways of improving that though (leveling being the most obvious) and by mid-SoA you have a decent character on your hands.