Damned for your selfish selfless deeds!

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Did the topic make sense? No? Good. That's the point.

Inspired by the afterlife thread, I wonder what constitutes a 'good' deed that would earn you a place in whatever positive afterlife your religion (or even simply belief) provides. Now, after performing said deed you get let's say, for example, a 'Divine Point' and for every bad deed you lose a 'Divine Point'. Perhaps some good deeds are worth more DPs than others and some bad deeds cost more DPs than others, and values won't be universal, certain religions will have different values for different deeds. Eventually, when you die, you'll be left with a positive or negative number and you get the good reward or the bad reward.

So, in the end YOU get the prize (or punishment) but one must ask why you performed those deeds. In order to get the prize? A pessimistic view would think so. The only reason you did good things was to avoid a punishment of ETERNAL FIERY BURNING PAIN and nobody wants that, even the most dedicated mashocist (sp?) might want to rethink their life choice there.

So, one could argue that by performing a good, selfless deed - such as donating to charity, helping that old lady across the street, saying please and thank you - you're actually just doing it to score DPs with 'The Man Upstairs'. Obviously people who don't believe in any type of afterlife or those who don't think their afterlife system works like this don't need to worry about the immorality of being moral... but those who do have a 'Divine Point' system, why did you throw yourself on that grenade? Was it to save your fellow soldier, or to save yourself?

 

Ah. The problem is if you do good deeds just to go to heaven, they dont count.

 

I'm not sure that it works that way. True damnation comes from only a few sins, while true exaltation comes at the end of a long journey to truly conquer your selfishness. It's not just about doing good, but understanding why it's good and wanting to be truly good. Doing good deeds is only the first step...

 

There are no sins though, no one ever sins because sins dont exist.

 

There are laws you can break, hmm? and suffer the consequences if you will...But in the afterlife? I think that even the dream of a you will fade away...Even by christianity some are given a new body, but if mind and body are not separate things, a new mind might be given as well, and perhaps even without a memory of the old.

I think it to be a very self-centered view that there would be any causal relation between your actions and how God would reward you...

Doing good deeds is just like climbing stairs, breathing, or being alive. Or only being. The more you think about it, the more complicated and perhaps more difficult it will get. A good deed is wei wu wei, action without action, without intent, without consequence. Things fall into their rightful places only to be stirred again.

 

SPANKY CHEESE MONKEYS ARE RUMMAGING THROUGH MY BRAIN!!! TWICE THE SECOND OF NOVEMBER IS PIE!!

Guess what, the above post belong in this topic as most of the others. This isn't about the validity of such a belief, but about how it would work if it were true!

Personally, I don't think I can fathom such a conundrum. I think my brain would implode with such force as to tear a hole in the universe. For that reason, I'll stay out of here from now on. If you see me in here again, it may just be a sign of the apocalypse.

 

But if sins, or evil deeds do not exist, then can good deeds exist?

 

Methinks they're not a separate thing. We expect something to work in a logical way, with causal relations. That's how things work, with cause and effect. Now what kind of God would be subservient to rules of logic and causation. And God handing out rewards, because it is just? That would mean that there a rules of good and evil by which even God would have to be measured.

The thing I'm saying is that even if such a system of Divine points would exist, we cannot have any logically consistent knowledge of how it would work. Damned for your selfish selfless deeds indeed. It's a bit of a paradox, and paradoxes are most definitely not nonsense. Paradoxes are valuable, because they tell us that there are limitations to our thinking.

Maybe the only possible way of divine point system to work is not to think about the consequences of your actions at all. Blessed be those who do right, not by their own acount, but because to them has been given the opportunities to do the right thing. God moves in mysterious ways and that sort of thing...

So I'll just go with Book of Job on this one. That's a funny book of the Bible if there ever was one...And with Book of Job in mind, maybe it's good not to think about your sins too much either, if God would want to punish you, you would be punished, or maybe not. But that's not up to how you feel about your sins, what are the good things you've done, what are the bed things and how carefully you calculate them and do the math, will you go to heaven or will you go to hell. That's up to God, like everything is according to christianity.

 

When we are children we are rewarded when we obey our parents or at least not punished. If we disobey we are punished. Why would not a paternalistic god reward those who obey him and punish those who disobey him?

 

It's amusing to me that after 600+ years this still hasn't been settled.

 

Point taken, but Job wasn't punished, but tested. Every crappy thing that happenned to Job was a test of his faith, not punishment for lack thereof. In the end, Job was rewarded with not only a restoration of those things lost, but a doubling of herds, friends, wealth, land and reputation...

The rewards don't always wait until the afterlife. There are blessings that come to those that are faithful here in this world as well as the next. And the punishments are more the consequenced of the actions. Just as you teach your kids not to touch a hot stove because they will be harmed, the Lord gives us laws to protect us from harm or to reach our highest potential.

 

Because to be able to stop it you'd need to disprove a theory which relies on faith (which is the absence of proof).

 

Gnarff, God did not restore Job's family. What does a doubling of herds, reputation etc. mean if Job's family members were not restored...It must have been a very empty redemption. And for what was Job's family destroyed?...a debate with Lucifer over the staunchness of Job's loyalty - a staunchness which an omnipotent being would already know exists.

Job: One of the many reasons I can't believe in the christian take on the 'creator'.

I have never met anyone who behaves in a manner consistent with a true belief that sins will lead to eternal suffering. Who would not forego selfish pleasures during this 70 year blip of an existence if they knew for sure that their poor behavior would place them squarely in a miserable burning pit forever>>>>NOBODY!!! And don't tell me of the sinning nature of man; how the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak...a true belief in eternal punishment would tremendously steel anyone's flesh.

 

Most likely Job (if he ever existed) attracted robbers etc to his herds because of his vast wealth. And his children dying in an earthquake or something isnt uncommon since Palestine is on a fault-line. Then breaking out in boils would naturally occur if he was under stress.

No doubt all the stuff that happened to him (if it really did) were just coincidences, and later generations sought to explain reasons why such a 'good' man went through so much unfortunate events.

 

Just one comment on Job. God did not punish Job for anything. According to the story Satan claimed that if he, Job, didn't have such a great life he would not adore God. So God said alright, Satan, go to it and see if you can turn this loyal follower against me. So Satan tried and failed and God gave Job back more than he had before.

 

Yes, it would be rather strange to think that there would be any correlation between your actions and your afterlife. Hence you can do pretty much anything you like and still choose where you want to go when you are dead.

Well said. Religions are about closing the eyes and ears of the religious against unwanted, outside sources. In this case, for example, a clear, mathematical model would allow people to count their DP for their every action and remove the uncertainity of wheter or not they "make it" in the ultimate end. Which would be bad for the priests, since they do want to keep their sons and daughters in tow and reliant.

[ March 18, 2007, 18:06: Message edited by: Wordplay ]

 

You must remember that within a religious context, such marriage and familial bonds were eternal. The first set of offspring were waiting in the afterlife to be reunited with Job and his wife. They brought forth children after these trials, so that Job could rejoice with family at the end of the story.

What you are missing out on is that Jesus Christ dies to make the forgiveness of our sins possible. What is scarier is the percentage that claim to be of the faithful, but don't take God's laws seriously, instead doing as they please under the impression that having water sprinkled over their head will keep them from paying for their sins. Gee, from that perspective, I understand where that looks ridiculous. But I draw a different conclusion than many of you. While you are quick to throw the flag of , I look the other way and believe that the ordinance is not, in and of itself, sufficient to enter heaven. The ordinance of baptism is only an early step in the eternal journey. Faith requires obedience to the covenents you make at baptism...

Some, yes, but not all. Mine instead advocates learning the doctrine, making that personal, spiritual connection, then looking at the world and choosing for yourself that which is desirable. Do you think my posts would be so long here if all it was was simply closing my eyes and going "blah blah blah" all the time? I think the Moderators would have given me Hell for that real fast.

It would be convenient, but it is a fallacy. God is not a bean counter, but more like a job interviewer. He doesn't count good deeds and bad deeds, but why you do them and what you learn from them. For sins, what did you do to make things right with those you hurt.

Once again, it's not about the numbers, but about what you do for those in your stewardship. For those that attend the sermons, are they spiritually strengthened or do they just get a nap before drinking beer and watching football all afternoon? For the investigator, do they feel closer to God? For those that once attended but now can't/don't, what can you do to ease their burden or help them to feel God's love? Reducing it to mathematics takes the soul out of the equation...