Deporting U.S. Citizens

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This does tie into the illegal immigration topic, but I think it takes it in a very different direction. You can read some background on the topic here.

Here's the issue: A great many people in the U.S. illegally have kids who are born in the U.S. Under current U.S. law, anyone born in the U.S. is automatically considered a citizen of the U.S. Under the proposal currently under consideration by Congress, in which illegal immigrants who have been here for less than five years could be deported back to Mexico, what do you do about those who have had children in the U.S.? Technically speaking, if you deport families whose children were born on U.S. soil, you are deporting American citizens. They are juveniles, but U.S. citizens nonetheless.

There are few who would condone the actions of their parents who got here illegally, and there are methods of deporting people even if they entered the country legally, but only if it involves committing a crime. In this case though, we would be deporting a person who is a U.S. citizen, and has done nothing wrong. Obviously the kids can't stay here - provided they are under 18, they are still under the legal protection of their parents, so if the parents go, so do they.

On a similar vein, what happens if one person is here illegally, but marries a U.S. citizen? Contrary to popular belief, marrying a citizen does not confer immediate citizenship status. You can read all about the details here. There is usually a waiting period after getting married to official citizenship. Further, if you get divorced or separate shortly after the marriage (usually within one year), your citizenship can be revoked. Now, that particular aspect of the law makes sense. It is to avoid the practice of marrying someone just to get into the U.S., even if you have no intention of staying with that person. But again, the current law under consideration does not make any provision for illegals who have married a U.S. citizen, just as it makes no provision for the children who are legal.

While I cannot think of any examples of actual deportation, there is precedent of U.S. citizens having rights temporarily revoked despite having done nothing wrong. The most notorious example of this is probably during WWII, where tens of thousands of Japanese immigrants (many of whom were here completely legally and had official citizenship) were placed into prison camps on the premise that they were potential Japanese sympathizers.

I'm not sure how I feel about these issues, but one thing is growing increasingly clear - that the immigration debate is a lot more complex than I thought.

 

Take away the citizenship of anyone born to parents who were here illegally.

 

Well that get's into a really sticky situation if you do that. Look at the Los Angeles area. They have an illegal immigrant population in the hundreds of thousands (the total Latino population is in the millions). In some cases there, you have people who were born to illegal parents, grew to adulthood and have children of their own. Are we going to start deporting 2nd generation Americans too? I sure hope not, because I fall into that category as well. (I mean I'm a 2nd generation American - not that my grandparents were here illegally.)

Another issue is it really appropriate to call it deportation? You can't - by the very definition of the word - deport people who were born in the U.S. and only have citizenship in the U.S. You would effectively be making them people without a country.

 

Since the law would deport illegals who have been here less than 5 years take away the citizenship of any one under 5 years old who is born to an illegal who is here less than 5 years. Convoluted. Right, Aldeth, this is a complicated problem.

 

But if they've been in the country for over 5 years then they can not be deported, right?

It seems to me that this whole fiasco is America realising in retrospect that it should have upheld its immigration laws far more fiercely in the past and now it's paying the price for its idleness.

 

Under the current proposal - which has not passed Congress - yes, those who have been living here in the U.S. could apply for citizenship. Those who were here for at least two years would be sent to Mexico, but allow to return after obtaining a temporary work permit, and those who have been here less than two years have to go back and wait in line with everyone else.

I'm not sure what you mean - what price are we paying? The cost of educating the children of immigrants? It is the general belief that illegal immigrants provide a net economic benefit to the U.S.

 

Exactly. Mirgrant workers are a perfect example of this. How many citizens are willing to work for less than minimmum wage?

 

I thought we brought up the fact that illegal immigrants make an average of 9 dollars an hour... well over minimum wage in America.


Anyways, on topic. I think all illegal immigrants who have been here under 5 years should be deported. After that, any illegal immigrant that enters should be deported. If they have children that fall under that 5 year category (as in, they are 5 years old) should be deported, and any that are born from now on should be deported. So basically, what Nakia said, except anyone born or entering this country illegally from now one should be sent back as well.

 

My fiancee was born in Mexico. Her mother is native-Mexican and her father was born and raised in Virginia, of Irish and native-American descent. My fiancee's mom's first husband was Mexican and he died. My future mother-in-law had three children with her first husband - they were all born in Mexico. She had two children with her American husband who she has been married to now for about 30 years; my fiancee was born in Mexico and her full brother was born in the United States.

They moved to Texas many years ago (and since elsewhere.) My fiancee and her full brother have American citizenship (her full brother was born here, my fiancee was naturalized.) My fiancee's half-brother, for example, is not an American citizen. He has been in the United States illegally since he was brought here at about age 10 by his stepfather who is an American citizen. He speaks Spanish with an American accent. He hasn't been to Mexico in about 30 years. He owns his own business and is married to an American woman and has two children who are American citizens. He pays taxes. His family doesn't receive welfare benefits (he earns a good living.)

He has been trying to become an American citizen for about 8 to 10 years. He has spent thousands of dollars. He is still working on it. See, when he was 16 he was stupid - he drove home from a highschool prom party (how American is that)and was arrested for a DUI. Now at almost age 40 and no further legal issues he is still faced with some challenges with respect to obtaining citizenship. (Interestingly, even under the lenient proposals out there he still may not be able to become a citizen - that 24 + year old DUI he got as a 16 year old.)

Many people would probably say - he is illegal AND he broke the law - deport him. But, I'm not sure what would become of his two American children or his American wife. He could take them to Mexico, where he hasn't been for 30 years and where he doesn't know anyone and where his children, and where his children and wife have never been, or he can continue as an illegal immigrant running his own business and paying taxes while helping to raise his children.

(As an aside - my fiancee's mom, my fiancee, and her little brother have all been deported to Mexico on two occasions in the past despite all being American citizens at the time. My fiancee's mom didn't have their papers with her during the roundups at the local parks. They illegally came back into America on both occasions because my fiancee's father was a longhaul truckdriver and on the road and they had no way to get their papers to prove they were illegally booted in the first place. So their legal Americans illegally here I suppose.)

 

Whoa... here in Australia, one citizen being mistakenly deported was a national scandal. I've no doubt that it happens much more often than that, but I don't think I can understand the mentality underpinning border protection and immigration in the USA. Then again, Australia has no land border with any other country and isn't seen as the land of opportunity by as many. It still staggers me that people can be so nonchalant about deporting some of its citizens on what may amount to a legal technicality.

The fundamental problem with this position is that it renders someone stateless. It's not as though the children did anything - except being born to the wrong people, I guess. That also leaves out any consideration of the probable fact that the children have lived their entire lives in the US.

If you're going to do something that severe, you need to guarantee that they can become citizens of another nation before you strip them of their citizenship.

You're missing the point, Saber. What about legal immigrants and native citizens - what's the average wage per hour for them? Comparing the amount illegal immigrants make to the minimum wage is irrelevant. As Laches has outlined, the stereotype of the illegal immigrant is not representative of everyone that is in the USA illegally. I wouldn't doubt that there are a lot of people who don't even know they're not legally US citizens.

 

An intweresting side note:

My great Grandparents came to Canada Illegally in the winter over the Ice flows of Lake Erie in the Early part of the 20th Century. My Grandfather was born in Canada. Under that law, My grandfather would have been deported as a child...

I guess if they've lived in the area for a number of years, and established themselves, they should have the opportunity to make it legal, but if they can't/won't. then deport them. But the priotity would be to keep the family together, meaning those under 18 would be still US Citizens, but living with parents that are not.

 

Which doesn't change the fact that the illegals doing migrant work in agriculture are paid less than minimum wage.

 

Indeed. Just for the sake of argument, let's say that the legal population makes an average of $X a year. This includes people like Bill Gates and Donald Trump, as well as the homeless. There can be very wide ranges around an average.

 

Thanks NS for stating my opinion much more eloquently than I initially did. That's what I meant when I asked if it's even accurate to say we are deporting them. Deportation is sending someone back to their country of origin - which in the case of the children of illegal immigrants is the U.S. It's really ironic when you think about it, because being born in the U.S. means that they technically aren't citizens of Mexico either (or whatever country thier parents were from - typically Mexico, but theoretically somewhere else). So it sending them to Mexico, the parents would have to apply to get them citizenship in Mexico. Of course, it would probably be considerably easier getting a child of Mexican born parents Mexican citizenship than it would in getting the parents U.S. citizenship.

I never looked at it that way, but you have a point. The average wealth of Bill Gates and a homeless person is about $30 billion.

The average salary for all U.S. workers is $15.54 per hour according to this source. So, if the average illegal immigrant is making $9 per hour, than means that the average illegal is making a salary that is 42% less than the average U.S. worker, and I'm sure a lot of that is because there are many more people working below minimum wage than people like Laches' father-in-law-to-be, who makes a good living. Also, I have my doubts about the $9 per hour figure, simply because of the sources you are relying upon. There's only two methods available of calculating that figure - you either have to look at tax returns, or survey employers. The problem with both those methods is that employers that are paying illegal immigrants below minimum wage aren't going to report that in a survey, and most illegal immigrants working for below minimum wage aren't going to file a tax return.

 

Children born in the US to illegal immigrants are citizens of the country their parents are citizens of. They are not "stateless."

Automatically conferring US citizenship on them because they are born here perpetuates one of the problems.

 

Ah, but automatically conferring US citizenship is one of the main aspects of getting immigrants to integrate into society. Besides, I think that it is only logical to be able to claim citizenship in the country you happened to be born in.

 

Automatically conferring citizenship on children born to people in a country legally encourages legal immigration and integration.

Automatically conferring citizenship on children born to people who are not legally or legitimately in a country encourages and legitimizes illegal activity.

Not to mention how frustrated it makes people who go through the legitimate immigration process, wait their turn and follow the rules.

 

Lets not forget that the 4-5 year old children of illegal immigrants won't always speak spanish. (They usually will, but not always.....I've met more than a few immigrants who run English only households.)

 

The Supreme Court ruled a number of years ago on what defines 'jurisdiction' and who can be excluded in the US vs Wong Kim Ark. Their view was extremely narrow and only allow exclusion of citizenship to:

1. Children born to foreign diplomats serving in the US,
2. Children born to enemy forces in hostile action within the United States,
3. Native Americans born on tribal lands.

In this ruling all children born while the parents visited the US (either legally such as tourists or illegally), not falling under the above exclusions, are citizens of the US.

The Wong Kim Ark ruling will remain the guidance unless Congress enacts a law to circumvent that ruling (which would quite likely be found unconstitutional) or amends the Constitution.

There are really only two choices (it is just not morally right to break up a family):

1. The children and their parents stay. The parents are granted visa's until the child becomes an adult.

2. The family is sent back; however, the child will be allowed to return upon attaining adulthood.

 

My humble opinion on this is that the law should be changed. If you are a Mexican citizen, then your children should be Mexican citizens, no matter where you are living.

As for the whole immigrant issue, there are rules in place for a reason. Poverty or whatever does not give you the excuse to break the laws of a country. All people who have illegally entered the U.S. should be sent back to their country of origin. I don't care if these illegals do provide a net benefit to the economy -- they are criminals who have spit on the laws the another country. If they want to immirate, they can go through proper channels.

It's either that or just toss the borders wide open and let everyone come and go at whim, which would be a seriously stupid move.