Disturbance in our lives

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Do immigrants pose a general problem in your country. In Belgium, things are not as they once were. Right now, with the elections behind us, the extreme right parties have won greatly, and it disturbs me. Sad thing is most people see the immigrants as disturbances as well. They believe a so-called 'new wave of criminality' is caused by the sudden immigration.

In Belgium there is a multitude of cultures, that's what makes Brussels what it is today: The capital of Europe. But it brings lots of trouble. Ghettos, mostly of people from Marocco or Turkey, arise in most cities. I myself don't find it such a problem. But that's just me...

Do you have the same problem in your region? And do you agree with the common sentiment by the people?

 

Immigration in the late 20th and the 21st century is far different from what it was in the early 20th. Immigration used to be people that left their old country for a new life. Now immigration is people who leave their old country and try to keep their old life.

In the past immigrants would assimilate into the culture they moved into. The culture would also adapt to the immigrants. The American version of the english languange is littered with words from various ethnicities.

Now, immigrants are forming their own communities inside the culture. This is naturally causing fear in people who are basically seeing strangers moving into their communities.

 

The Great Snook -- It has always been that way -- at least in the US. Our history is littered with examples of immigrants making their way here and bringing their old ways and culture with them, to be preserved here. One only needs to look at many cities and towns on the east coast to see that. Many cities are divided into ethinic communities, where speaking English was, and in many places, still is, a rarity. These communities were tight-knit, had their own customs, churches, civic groups and ethnic restaurants as well. One could drive from one to the other and it was like going from country to country. I always thought it was kind of cool -- I really enjoyed getting a taste of different nationalities and customs.

 

I agree with Spellbound here. It's always been that way in the U.S. Nearly every major city has a "Little Italy" or a "Chinatown" (or both). Despite what people do to assimilate into society, it is naive to expect these people to leave behind their religions, traiditions, language and culture from their previous country. And I don't think they do this to preserve a way of life, I think they do it because it is familiar to them, and to carry on a tradition.

I will use myself as an example to illustrate my point. I am a mix of several nationalities, but I predominantly describe myself as an Italian American. There are many traditions we have espeicailly around the holidays. The first one that springs to mind is the seven fish on Christmas Eve. I don't eat that to preserve the Italian way of life in America - it's just a tradition. We've always done that, so why should we stop?

Of course, maybe the reason I don't have a problem with this is because I'm an American. Let's face it - unless you can claim your heritage to Navajo, Cherokee, or some other Native American culture or nation (or in other words about 1% of the U.S. population - everyone in the U.S. is either an immigrant, or a decendant of an immigrant.

 

That is the major difference.

The immigrants of old held on to their traditions, but decided to be Americans. If you look at the "old neighborhoods" you will see that they aren't as ethnic as they used to be. Here in Boston there are plenty of Italians that live in Irish Southie and plenty of Irish in the Italian north end. Nevermind the second and third generations that left for the suburbs and/or other parts of the country.

 

I think it may be more a matter of perception than anything else.

The “immigrants of old” have been in North America for some time. I would be willing to bet that when they first came here (whether to Canada or the U.S.), they were not so willing or quick to change their ways. But as their children started going to public schools, and their children’s children did the same, gradually the families became more integrated with the broader society.

So with respect to the current group of immigrants, I suspect that you again won’t see an integration with them, but rather it will come with their children.

And I'm with Spelly here. I like the different cultures we have, if for no other reason than I love food from other countries. (But I think I'll take a pass on natto. )

 

I am like a lot of people and I initially resent all the immigrants that seem to be flooding into my country (New Zealand), pushing up house prices, taking jobs, and not integrating properly or speaking English.

But I realise that that is a silly way to think because EVERY SINGLE PERSON in New Zealand is an immigrant because there were no humans (that we know of) living here at all only 1000 years ago. I guess people like me are afraid of the unknown and afraid of change.

So I should really try and look on the bright side, embrace the diversity that my new fellow countrymen are bringing, and enjoy the spectacularly delicious food that they cook in their various ethnic restaurants!

 

Yes it is a big problem in England. Like in Birmingham almost half of it is Arabic now. In some parts there are signs put up by the Muslim folk saying no white or black people after 8pm or you get hurt. Just driving through these places is like being in the middle of Iraq or whatever. Most of them are Indian Sikh and Pakistani/Bangladeshi Muslims, they only come here because they get housed and paid benifits. Look at these districts in Birmingham. There are 11 districts, 6 of them are almost entirely Muslim/Sikh and Birmingham is the second capital in England I think. Just imagine what it will be like in 20/30 years time. Won't be long before the race riots start again, jeez I hope I am out of here by then.

 

While all of the above arguably seems to be true and the phenomenon is known in most if not all 1st and 2nd world countries, I never came quite to terms with the idea that ghettos and immigrants' violence has anything to do with immigration at all.

1. Ghettos. They exist. they are all over the place. They surely pose a severe problem. But nevertheless no immigration specific problems here. I have moved to the former GDR, there are plenty all-german-ghettos here, parts of the city or whole (small) towns where only Germans live - mostly right-winged ones. It's a depressing sight. Anyone who has ever been to Berlin-Marzahn or Halle-Neustadt knows what I'm talking about. I am not to keen on driving through them at night I have to say.
2. Violence of Immigrants. Well well. The fear of that kind of violence seems to be omnipresent in certain circles, whereas I'm almost certain that none of those who claim that this kind of violence exists ever had to experience it. It may be different in your case, though.

All other things related with violence from "outsiders" usually point more into the direction of organized criminality (not sure if this is the right term) and will always be there, immigration or not.

 

Seriously? There are no native people of New Zealand? Geez, with the exception of Antartica (and possibly Greenland), that would make New Zealand that largest land mass on the planet with no native population. I take it there are no fossils of earlier hominids either?

 

I don't think immigration is the problem it's how fast immigrants want to integrate into the overall society and how fast that society wants to accept them. There's a big difference between preserving the cultural and language heritage of the Old Country and using that heritage to remain separate from the overall society of the new.

While the new country has to make an effort to accomodate immigrants and simplify their transitions - let alone embracing the new cultural gifts the immigrants bring - immigrants themselves also have to make an effort to let go of their old ways and fit it. Most of the immigrant-related stress I've observed has been due to separatist attitudes and the immigrants wanting the new society to bend over backwards for them, while not making efforts on their own.

 

Aldeth, I believe that the earliest evidence of hominids in New Zealand dates back to about 1000 AD when the first Polynesians arrived on their trans-Pacific canoe journeys. These travellers named their newly discovered land 'Aotearoa' or 'Land of the Long White Cloud'. They went back to their home islands and told their friends prompting a larger migration of people who eventually became the Maori people. By the time the first European (James Cook) landed in New Zealand, the Maori had been in residence for about 700 years so were considered to be 'native'.

In fact, before the Maori arrived, New Zealand only had one mammal species at all (a small bat).

 

Diversity is a good thing! Just do what I do when I hear two people not speaking the proper language in the US. I say, "Hey people! This is America...speak Spanish!

 

Around about a century ago in the US, a big point of discussion among certain circles was whether catholic immigrants could ever assimilate into America, and whether it was even possible for catholics, on account of their "alliegence" to the pope, could even take part in a democracy. This would of course include Irish and Italian immigrants, groups who are now perfectly assimilated into the US (the Sopranos aside, that is). Check out the rhetoric around and against Al Smith's (a catholic) unsuccessful run for the presidency in 1928; harsh (and racist) stuff. But all of this is forgotten now, and the US is about to elect its second catholic president. Some of the same rhetoric is floating around about latin american or muslim immigrants to the US; in time I'm sure that will die down as well.

Europe has no choice but to accept immigration. Europe is just as implicated in globalization as the US; more so if you consider the centuries of colonialism they took part in (and which the US played a large part in bringing to a close post WW2). Aside from this debt to its former colonies, Europe's hands are tied by its low birth rates. The US doesn't have this problem, largely because of immigration, and IIRC California will soon have more non-caucasians (mostly asian and hispanic) than caucasians, and nearly all of these are *fully* assimilated Americans, with all of the national quirks that people have been making fun of even before the Declaration of Independence.

At the same time, I've known Anglo-Pakistanis who were thoroughly English, ethnic Turks who were thoroughly German, ethnic Arabs who were thoroughly French. I expect that the "national character" of these countries will live on just fine (for better or for worse!) even as the descendants of immigrants inevitably move toward representing the majority of their respective populations....

 

Just one thing that's funny to me is, that the age of nationalism has cleared out of public memory immigration is nothing new to European countries. Indeed, Berlin is a city build and inhabited by immigrants way younger then New York. And as Europe suffered from over-population in the 19th, the biggest part of emmigration indeed was "domestic". Only less an a half travelled over the oceans to New Zealand and the like, the rest just immigrated into other European regions, like the before mentioned Berlin. Prussia is a state build by foreign immigration. Domestic-colonization with immigrants is the main theme of the late middle-ages and early modernity. So, nothing new here for Eurpeans. Just forgotten.

Here

 

In here, the are immigrants who work or study and immigrants who roam, beg and steal. Guess which are liked and which aren't.

People in here typically like the working or studying immigrants. They show us that our country is attractive to foreigners and that's a very good thing. We like that. It was always like that in Poland, anyway, from early centuries. We used to be the most ethnically mixed nation. Nation of people coming from various different nations. Someting like the US now but in renaissance to englightenment age Europe. Guess ethnic Poles were 40% of the population at best. Lots of Jews who were received here after being prosecuted and expelled from other European countries. Lots of German settlers. Flemish settlers. Even some large groups of Scottish people.

Gypsies are hardly immigrants, but they are sort of foreign, anyway. Won't integrate and boycott the state. Roam and steal. Granted, not all. But many. And the rest stick to those, anyway. They speak bad things about Poles as well, threaten and the like. People aren't maybe resentful towards individuals, but the group as a whole has a bad reputation and caution is exercised.

People are also resentful towards foreigners coming and becoming CEOs, directors etc. American companies come and fire half the staff hiring new people for cheap short-term contracts, for instance. Immigrants who get much less money than Poles. Polish directors and managers get demoted. The companies bring people from their own lands. Or former Polish immigrants who worked for them in the original country. It sucks and some companies are truly hated. Even I have my own black list of companies the suits against whom I will welcome when I have finished my law studies. Sometimes I almost feel like specialising in Labour Law. Oh well, don't let us diggress too much.

The funny thing is some of immigrants speak Polish better than most locals. I have a friend who's half-Russian and half-Irish. And she has made no punctuation error ever when e-mailing me. Nor a spelling one. All tenses in proper use. Damn, I had a crush on her because of that

Kerry is only nominally Catholic and votes against the RCC's moral teaching. He should stop calling himself a Catholic. Wonder why he hasn't been excommunicated yet. It's high time someone did that.

 

Heh, if you excommunicate Kerry for only being nominally Catholic then the RCC better start excommunicate around 90% of its members cause they are just like Kerry. Hmmm, that might actually be one of the few good things the papacy have done.

 

Not for being nominally Catholic. For promoting morality different and opposite to the morality of the church. One doesn't get excommunicated for not going to church every Sunday or something.

 

Any elected representative has an obligation to the People and the Constitution, not a religious leader.

Thomas Jefferson's letters on the separation between the religious leaders and political representation:

Like Jefferson, I agree that a man's beliefs are between himself and God.

Note: A separate thread on this issue would be interesting.

 

An immigration law was agreed upon by our government and the opposition party. Among other points it cuts into all sorts of benefits for people moving to Germany who dont seem to have any interest in integration. That such a law is necessary says it all in my opinion.

Despite our politicans attempts to promote immigration as a positiv, even needed factor, it is a *highly* controversal topic in Germany. We have a large turkish population, many of the turkish families live here for some 40 years, yet they cannot be bothered to speak our language sufficiently, especially the women. Quite a few dont speak german at all. It doesnt help that there is a growing turkish infrastructure (clubs, groceries, lawyers etc) that makes interaction with germans simply not necessary anymore.
Education is poor among them. How could it be any different? Schools teach in german. Since the younger turks have parents who dont seem to support their children's integration they cannot even absolve the lower grades of education. Which results in frustrating situations like a hopeless perspective of finding an employer, ascending in society, improvement of social standing and so on.
Thus turks have a very bad reputation among germans as a people who dont fit in, who only benefit from the social system without giving something back. Add to this cultural/religious tensions and a funny attitude of some turks that they will take over Germany eventually.

What is troubling is that things arent getting better. The opposite is true. Young turks, unable to meet the standards of our society withdraw into a rather conservative version of turkish culture and reject what is surounding them. In a way I dont blame them.
Germans are apalled by the lack of 'open-mindedness', by the anger they face, the unappropriate behaviour and turn their backs on the turks.
Two people, in one country, growing apart. It all accelerates downward. We call it 'Parallelgesellschaften'. Of course there are exceptions - turks who are perfectly integrated, who speak german better than most 'natives'. Who go to college etc pp. But they are not the majority.

As for immigration helping out with our demographic problems: Thats an illusion. I dont know how many hundreds of thousands of immigrants would have to be assimilated each year to turn the tide of our populations decline. Thats far beyond our capacities. We will have to deal with the lack of children by other means.

Thats why Turkey must never be allowed to join the EU. At least not before we managed to break this cycle. Projections have it that 11 million turks would move to Germany. And the vast majority of germans is already fed up with those who live here. Being of the left side of the political spectrum I would hate to witness an upswing of some unsavoury right parties. Germany simply doesnt need that.

In theory I am all for the multicultural-societies-hype - but to me it is nothing but an utopy. Reality proves it. I dont know if things work out better in the U.S. but in Europe it clearly doesnt. The Netherlands, France... all have these problems. I dont accept that Europe undermines its own cultural integrity for the sake of some ideology. Call me conservative.