Dragon Age Forum News

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(Originally posted by chevalier)

Here are today's BioWare forum highlights, collected by NWVault. Please take into account that these are only single parts of various threads and should not be taken out of context. Bear in mind also that the posts presented here are copied as-is, and that any bad spelling and grammar does not get corrected on our end.

David Gaider, Designer

Is it still "We design the game with the same toolset we're giving to you" thing

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We were talking about DA. What are the reasons for not letting us create a new class/race/spell/ability in DA?
Why the realm of data editing must be unsupported?
Can't we have a supported way to modify spells.2da, xxx.tlk, classes.2da, races.2da or even have them integrated in the .mod file?
It's all Bioware stuff now.
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You answered your own questions, I see, but just to further clarify:

We are not saying you will not be able to create new classes/races/spells/etc in DA. In fact, as Brent said, it's very likely going to be much easier.

That kind of data editing will most likely, however, still be officially unsupported. That means that if our focus is on the toolset working to allow you to create stories set in the DA world, we will make sure the toolset does exactly that. We will give priority to bugs that prevent you from doing that. And when we look at new features, our first question is whether it helps our supported features.

That does not mean we will not work on data entry and make sure it's possible to use, of course, just as with NWN. Since our focus is not to make a build-your-own-RPG-system toolset, however, it does mean it takes second priority and that bugs submitted regarding it are not truly bugs per se but certainly fixes we might consider.

So at the end of the day you will likely have much more flexibility with the toolset, but modding on the level of changing the rules is still something you're not likely to see inherently supported (ie. you won't find a menu option to "Edit Class" or so forth).

That is simply my supposition, however. We are far from that kind of consideration. Mind you, we also have a better idea of how to go about this now so that it's easier for the end user to use/mod than when we did it the first time.

More :
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I have an idea that would help give the community the "exact tools" that BioWare uses. Have nightly builds posted online like they do with FireFox. Obviously they would be completely unsupported, but say you needed somethign in patch 1.63 in the toolset - just download the nightly beta build. What do you devs think of this idea?
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The nightly beta build?

Somebody make the bad man stop.

Subdual damage, grappling, etc.
I think it's a cool option, too, though a bit superfluous. And if subduing someone is an option when you go into combat, then I as a designer have to take into account the possibility that every enemy might possibly be rendered unconscious rather than killed and what effect that would have on the ensuing plot.

I suppose you could have it that someone lays there unconscious until they recover and then they go hostile again, but what's the point then? If you allow them to be tied up, what's to be done with them? Can they be questioned? Released? All stuff that would have to be accounted for.

You could also set it so only certain combats are set so that subdual may be used... but how much would that benefit? If I want to set up a specific subdual combat in NWN I can do that with scripting as it is.

So, yes, cool if one has a specific use for it but a lot to account for design-wise if it's a full combat option. And if it's just something to use occasionally and meant to be easier than scripting, than it's of questionable use. But still cool.

More :
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Superfluous? Two words: Bar. Fights.
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And? Two words right back at you: Script. Them.

More :
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...and do the grappling animation ourselves.
Two words: oh boy!
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Now that's quite something else. The question was subdual damage... not an entire grappling system complete with animations.

There would be a payoff with that, sure, but at that point we're talking even more work involved. And for what? So you can have a bar fight? Make all the cheeky comments you like, but unless there's some more compelling reason to implement a system like that, when it comes to resources allotment it's a questionable feature. Still a cool idea, and the kind of feature that would make me go "ooooooo" if it was implemented, but I can't imagine it being very important even then.

More :
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even so, we would like to see more big/major/important battles where we can negotiate with enemies.
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Done.

But also quite aside from subdual damage or a grappling system per se.

Merchant request for DA

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the more non-essential side-quests you got, the more total 1007 you will have available. is inevitable.

in any game where you can collect gold, silver, gems etc, you is gonna have to be able to buy stuff. is no real point otherwise... there will always be some kewl items/stuff that can be purchased, and the obsessive compulsive gamers (the folks who post on boards like this,) will be the folks who probably do every stinking side-quest and can afford more neato stuff. has to be 'nuff 1007 for folks who just does critical path to feel satisfied, and that necessarily means that crazy folks like carl and Gromnir, who does every quest available, will have more 1007 to spend on the items available in stores.

the developers can keep progression o' items relatively slow, and they can make sure that items in stores is never better than stuff you can find, and they can try to make purchase items more a matter of Kewlness as 'posed to power… buy house/keep or title, or fancy looking stuff as ‘posed to powerful stuff. heck, they can even make having large quantities of 1007 more annoying... (get robbed more often.) even so, as long as you has 1007 in games, you will have to make stuff available to purchase, and the folks who does all side-quest will always have more 1007 to purchase stuff.
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While there's still quite a bit of wiggle-room, Gromnir is quite correct in his assessment of the money sink situation.

Is it at all possible to step back from the precipice of mediocrity? (classes)

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when is somebody gonna get sick of this open v. closed nonsense?
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*raises hand* I'm right there with ya, Grom.

More :
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So shut us all up by leaking a bit of information about how the classes will work in DA.
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Why? So you can proceed to argue about how "open" or "closed" you think they are?

It boggles the mind, a bit.

Listeners and Conversations
I think it would be easier (according to the use that the original poster is asking for) to have a command that called up a small GUI by which the player could input text directly.

What you're talking about, Sysuro, still calls for scripting. Anything is possible, though.

Certainly the direct input GUI would be useful for riddles... I hate multiple choice with a passion reserved for seal clubbers and the folks who cancelled "Firefly"... so it's certainly a possibility.

You know how it is with GUI's, though. You go to a programmer and ask for a new GUI and they have a heart attack on the spot. Bunch of fakers.

Georg Zoeller, Designer

Merchant request for DA

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But if you want to shed some light on how the weapon skill system will work (BAB, skill points in specific weapons that can be raised individually, whatever) that would naturally be welcome and might make it easier for us to provide feedback.

Carl
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What's BAB? And what's skill points ?

Sorry Carl, but it will be a while until we will be able discuss here how the system will work

More : The whole +x stuff is a D&D signature thing... and DA is not D&D

More : I agree with Carl when it comes to items granting character abilities or signature powers (such as feats in NWN) - I don't like them. Character defining elements should not be available through items.

Can we get a Boo easter egg?
Boo is part of the Baldurs Gate IP, which not only is a D&D game, it's also not in BioWare's possession, so no, there is not chance you will see Boo in DA. If there is a playable giant minature space hamster race however, has not yet been decided.

Is it still "We design the game with the same toolset we're giving to you" thing
Hey Wiz,

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Since when the discussion diverged on NWN?
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Check the stuff you cut from the quote

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We were talking about DA. What are the reasons for not letting us create a new class/race/spell/ability in DA?
Why the realm of data editing must be unsupported?
Can't we have a supported way to modify spells.2da, xxx.tlk, classes.2da, races.2da or even have them integrated in the .mod file?
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Unsupported means that we will say "sorry, can't help" if you make changes to unsupported things and experience problems after doing so. It does not mean that you can't do those things.

Why call adding new races, classes, etc "unsupported". Because modifying those core parts of the game rules has a lot of implications. A lot of things can potentially go wrong here and to create a tool to allow the end user to perform those changes in a safe fashion is not an option because:

a) It's far faster for us to dump our data from the db into the .2da files - we don't need a userfriendly editor. Unlike the toolset there would be no internal value to such a tool, making it an expensive toy.

b) It's expensive - Creating a foolproof tool that can handle whatever crazy ideas the enduser has and that provides a clear structured and well thought through GUI is incredibly expensive. (especially the foolproof part)

Yes, sure it would be nice to have a sweet tool for the community for everything you could possibly want to do - but that's utopia.

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Or your vision of a supported DA world is a world limited to four races, no more than four races, forever four races? What if in my DA module I want ducks as a playable race? I give you an update: a large part of the community will build their own world with the toolset (look at the ratio NWN D&D modules/NWN "my own world" modules). How will they judge the unsupported possibility to add new races, to stick to that example?
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NWN was our first try on a mod friendly game, we hope to significantly improve modability in DA (i.e. less hardcoded limitations).

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The average mod-makers full of beautiful ideas cannot put them into their modules in a easy and fast way.
If there is a module with new spells (1 out of 100?) you can bet it will have the Spellman Project hak attached to it.
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That's unfortunate, especially since creating new spells is really easy I'll see if I can hold a seminar on that topic for the next NWCon.

However it's also just a reflection of the game development process - you have to develop within your limits and lay to rest to things that are outside your reach, be it because you don't have the manpower or missing expertise.

It's not different for us. Once programming is in "code complete", we can beg and cry and whatever, they will not add anything new for us to the game - we have to either kick that fancy new idea we had or work around it.

I know it doesn't sound nice, but the realistic solution is to make your plans within your abilities (good thing: You can easily learn new stuff and get rid of those limitations).

The sad truth is: people who play your module will never know what you cut or couldn't fit into the module - We cut some stuff from Hordes and I thought "damn, this is bad" but in the end nobody ever knew it was there in the first place, so it wasn't missed. Another solution is to work in a team and get a member on board who knows how to do the lowlevel stuff.

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Remember that for many creating a nice story for a RPG means basically writing the story and do a "customization" of the rules.
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Again, you will probably be able to make quite a lot more changes in DA (compared to NWN), but it will likely not be much easier once you start messing with things outside the toolset.

Things are likely to become a more mod friendly (i.e. adding new content without huge .2da merging sessions) but the core difficulty (understanding the process) will probably also stay about the same.

Power usually comes at the cost of a bit more complexity. But then again, there will hopefully be a bit more documentation this time around

More :
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I have an idea that would help give the community the "exact tools" that BioWare uses. Have nightly builds posted online like they do with FireFox. Obviously they would be completely unsupported, but say you needed somethign in patch 1.63 in the toolset - just download the nightly beta build. What do you devs think of this idea?
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You do not WANT our exact tools. Again, the "debug build" of the toolset is the same as the normal toolset with the exception of added debug symbols (and as such, slowness), more crashes and untested features and a couple of localization related functions that are of no use to the community.

I'm not exactly sure why people want to think that we are using some powerful secret tools behind their backs that give us an advantage over the community - we don't.

Subdual damage, grappling, etc.

Bar fights are chaotic. Extremely. That is, I think, basically the whole point of the barfight: wholesale destriuction and chaos without actually killing anybody. Have you noticed that there aren't any template scripts that set up an area for a barfight in NWN? It's because subdual damage is really something you need to hard-code for it to work propperly.
Bah, you don't need subdual. Just set everyone involved immortal and if they hit 1 hitpoint, put an effect sleep on them. You don't need subdual damage to do nonlethal combat. We already had the Sap feat in the game when NWN shipped and removed it later for balancing purposes.

Bane of class discussion!
DA will have classes, that's one of the things that are already set in stone.

Brenon Holmes, Programmer

Will there be a physics System?

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My understanding of Half-Life 2 physics is that they went all-out. Things can have either server-side physics (when it matters for all players) or client-side physics (where differences don't really matter). I think the server-side physics is tied into their client prediction system too so that things are hopefully not too choppy during gameplay.

That being said, I bet you're right that the single player game has lots of physics stuff, while multiplayer will have less. I'm sure someone will make some broadband-only maps with lots of physics entities that eats up the bandwidth like nobody's business. Should be fun to play, though.

Interactivity within the context of an CRPG is what I'm looking for. I don't need to be able to rip off the limbs of my enemies and use it as a weapon. It was funny once in Rune, but I think I'm done now.
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Ah, well I guess that thought was way off. I haven't been keeping up with B&W2 or HL2 very much (besides drooling over pretty eye-candy), thanks for the links... sounds like they'll have some pretty nifty features when all is said and done.

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Temrek the wizard wrote:

If it has the same result, why should you care how it is done? If every barrel is scripted to catch fire, is that worse then having a physics engine tell the barrels to catch fire?
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Exactly. As an end-user, you have no idea if something's physics based or script based. So does it matter if you can't tell the difference?

The amount of pay-off we'd get versus the amount of work required to implement the system is quite low. So, as I've said... there will be physics in the game - just not a physics engine.

Brent Knowles, Co Lead Designer

"What's yer beef" with NW-Script
In regards to overriding the AI... I'm pretty sure there's a variable that you set on the creature (load up one of beholders and check out the variable panel). This string variable is the name of an alternative script that is ran instead of the creature's standard combat round -- Georg implemented the system so he'll correct me if I'm giving you false information...

Dynamic wildlife in DA?
On Dragon Age we plan to have environments that look more realistic/interesting than anything we have done before. That said, as has been suggested above, we will be using placeables and triggered events to fake it. There won't be any AI per-se running behind the scenes simulating how many bugs Bird X has eaten and then having him fly back to his nest once he is full.

But we will implement many triggered events that will make the player feel that the world is realistic and that things are happening even when he is not around.

Is it still "We design the game with the same toolset we're giving to you" thing
Actually in NWN you can modify the existing classes. You can also add new spells. It all involves editing the 2das. DA will be much the same but hopefully with fewer restrictions.

 

(Originally posted by jigga boo.)

I like it.