Dragons: fearsome or laughable?

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Dragons are known to be fearsome foes. They are immortal beings that only get strong with the time. Their race is one of the few a powerful adventurer should fear, no matter how strong he is. But in Baldur’s Gate (well, as far as I know, in any AD&D game) they are less than a joke for a mid-level party with a few preparations. Legends say they are heavy magical beings, plenty of strength and with almost no weaknesses. Even for a party right out of chateaux Irenicus they are fairly beatable. There are mods out there that buff them, but even they aren’t faithful to the true nature of dragons. My question is: what do you think dragons should be capable of in AD&D games? What spells they should be able to cast and what about their strategies? What can be done to make them as fearsome as they were meant to?

 

If they made Dragons too hard in BG then peopel probably wouldn't find it fun to battle them or even include them. They have to have some measure of beatability. If you think they are too easy set the difficulty to insane ONLY when you fight them and don't use spells on yourself.

I like the dragons and in the games yes I think they could/should be harder. But thatis how they are made in BG nothing we can do

DI Rulesets they are ELITE though

 

I finally just quit playing ToB at that one dragon.... I cant even remember his name now, but he's the one in front of Abizigal's lair. I tried and tried and tried to beat him but couldnt, so I finally just said !@$* it, and havent played BG since.

 

Draconis - the hardest Dragon in the game

now HE is a dragon!

 

I think it depends how prepared you are for the dragons when you encounter them. The first time through the game Firkraag wiped out my entire party and no matter how many reloads I went through I just couldn't get the better of him.

But after playing the game again and improving my tactics, I managed to kill him the second time round with a solo fighter/mage (time stop then pound him to mush before the spell ran out).

 

The only thing they should try to give dragons in the game is the ability to fly! A swoop from the dragon, combined with his breathweapon makes a devastating monster. If he's seriously hurt he should also be able to run away, and wait until the party is weaker or the lower resistance spells are worn off. In PnP dragons really are so powerfull that sane adventurers rather not fight one, especially in 3rd.

 

Compared to the rest of the monsters in BG2, dragons are pretty tough! But you're right -- they are easier than they are made out to be.

 

The thing with dragons in BG2 is that you have time to prepare, usually. In WK, you can scout him out , and the Draconis and Abazigal arenas are so big that you can use really long-range tactics to take them out, and Saladrex is susceptible to all your favourite tactics from SoA (blanketing with Clouldkill, millions of traps, etc). I find dragons in general to be quite easy IF I have the right kit and spells... Lower Reistance/Pierce Magic being the most important. The hardest dragon is undoubtedly Draconis - to deafeat him, I first whupped his human form as quickly as possible with summons and hideously buffed frontliners (Minsc, Keldorn , and Korgan). Then I inched forward my PC, who was a mage with the Robe of Vecna and the Staff of the Magi, so that he could let off his chain contingency which contained three Pierce Magics. I then cracked off a Doom and a Greater Malison, followed by the time-honoured Mage o' Cheesy Doom strategy - Improved Alacrity, Time Stop, Abi Dalzim's X 4...
Needless to say, he was shortly toasted. Or wilted if you like .

 

I agree for the first time through they are quite tough enough.

But to experienced players even insane difficulty doesnt help. Improved dragons are mostly the same except that they prevent buffing and summoning beforehand.


So i find them not tough enough. As i have TDD i found them especialy laughable. I was placed in the same area as Underdark and i had to slay three dragons. It was really too easy. One of them should be ancestor of all dragons but he fell like a fly.


But the most disturbing is the lack of magic they use. All any dragon casts in a battle agains me is haste, dragon breath and stoneskin - standard spells. Sometimes he manages to cast Greater malision. But then he falls

 

Draconis and Firkraag---OMG

 

All the dragons in BG are wimps compared to Klauth

Great red wyrm of the north

 

All the tougher monsters are a challenge the first time you meet them.

I remember the first Lich I found killed my party rather quickly.

But last night the Lich in the Twisted Rune died before he got one spell off.

Carsomyr and Whirlwind attack with my Undead Hunter saw to that!

Dragons are the same.
I needed one reload to get Firkraag.

 

Hopefully they all aren't as gullable as Hephaestus, the red dragon from the book "Sojurn".

Anyways, I think dragons in BGII are difficult enough when the game is on "Core Rules"...those wing buffets are a pain in the a$$.

 

Off Topic: Sorry guys, but I had just installed ToB and I'm really confused with such a large number of names of Dragons!!! I just encountered 4 (the Black one in Suldanesselar, Firkraag, Adelon in UnderDark, and the Shadow one in Temple Ruins)in SoA...where are the others?

On Topic: I found them hard in the first time, but after I got familiar with the game...phfew, they just don't make a scratch on me. So now I have to put the difficulty higher for them from...

 

Spoilers ahoy:


Well, there's Draconis, and his daddy Abazigail. (You'll meet them in due time) There's also another dragon in some caves (whom you don't have to fight but can talk your way through) before Draconis and Abazigail iirc. And there's also a dragon in the ninehells. (SoA) Watcher's Keep also holds a dragon.

I tell ya, Baldur's Gate 2 must have used up all liches and dragons in all of Faerun

[ March 09, 2003, 12:45: Message edited by: Faragon ]

 

I think the main thing they can do to improve the difficulty in this respect is to stop trying to make things balanced, I prefer the type of game that encourages you to become as powerful as possible and where the enemies don't have a exploitable weakness because you're tough enough not to need one. That said they seem powerful enough as they are though it also seems to be more a question of luck when attacking them. The dragons in the original game have pitfully low hp and can be taken out with a few lucky swipes from a sword.

 

They are harder in some ways, easier in others, than they should be.

First, because they rely on scripts, they aren't are smart as they should be. A real dragon could better counter whatever tactic a party tried to use. It's even worse that they'll watch you lay traps around them. I mean, wurms are supposed to be smart, right?

Second, their breath weapons aren't as strong as they should be, according to the *real* rules (yeah, that would be first edition). Damage isn't supposed to be variable, it's supposed to equal the dragon's maximum hit points--now that would hurt with as many hit points as they've got in SOA/TOB!

Third, unless you install the upgrade mods, you never encounter multiple dragons.

On the other hand, they've got way more hit points than they should have (huge, ancient red dragons had 88 hit points in first edition--again, the *real* rules). I guess they need these in the BG world that is so oversaturated with magic items (with apparently only two beings in the universe that know how to make a magic item, one by repairing broken stuff, and another who watches Home & Garden television!).

Also, they're never asleep, so you can't ever sneak up on them (unless you happen to be a John in a Trademeet brothel), which makes them harder on the whole than they should be.

Beyond that, you can't subdue them, so you always end up fighting to the death--that makes them harder too.

And they aren't really all that evil, so that they tend to show more mercy and patience than they ought to instead of just killing you for fun.

And the whole avatar thing is totally beyond the realm of what a dragon should be. I mean, polymorphing oneself is one thing, but having two whole lives so that a change from humanoid to dragon totally heals and restores you while the attacking party waits silently and motionless for you to alter your form and renew your attack? Yeah, right.

Anyway, many traditional stories about dragons don't paint them as that incredible. Take Smaug (from the Hobbit)--he was felled by one arrow. Lots of other stories tell of dragons that are taken out by a single champion (St. George, etc.). In historical art works, they are often a lot smaller than we find them in the BG series. They're supposed to be bad, but they aren't the worst thing you can encounter. Granted, it makes game play more challenging (especially on the replay) if they are more buffed, but that doesn't really fit the more traditional literary picture of dragons.

 

I last night was soloing a beserker level 21. He had 1 WW and 1 GWW attack as HLAs. I had the Dragon Helm and the Shield that resists fire and the Ring of Fire Resistance all the stuff from the Windspear Hills dungeon.

I did a beserk rage, swallowed a speed potion and a potion of Frost Giant strength.

I went down to Firkraag and I killed him with the WW attacks in 2 and a half rounds. That was such a joke, because I used the Frostreaver axe and that was the secondaty weapon I use.

I said to myself repeatedly, how sad, how lame.

It is only a game, but it made dragons seem a joke. He spent all the time casting spells instead of biting my head off or burning me up!

If only it was Smaug...

 

Well I can say I am a veteran player of BG2 and that dragon are easy. But the thing is now they are easy.

I will not believe that when you encountered Firkraag the first time, when you hadn't even the knowledge he was there, you beat the crap out of him.

I must have died at least 5 times before I got him the first time. The thing is that dragons may seem easy right now but that's only because you know *how* to beat them. You didn't know the first time and you most certainly died the first time.