Druids vs. Clerics

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I wanted to ask you people, which do you think is better a druid(30)or a cleric(30)? Regardless of order, personally I think the low-level druid spells are near-worthless. I just think that being able to shapeshift is cool, and that I love to see summons. Besides, the druid shape-shift is bugged, sometimes even when you select the feat, the icon for the animal won't appear. I just want to know what you think, druid or cleric?

 

With the extra shapeshifting feats , I think you first have to rest before the icon will appear. (Had same kind of problem with adding a level of wizard to my rogue. At the top of the spellbook it showed nothing , while there had to be a rectangle with text saying 'wizard'. I figured out I had to memorize a spell first. That worked!)

About the priests : druid = offensive ; cleric = defensive ->that's spellwise , but you should multiclass them likewise.

 

In my opinion, Clerics are a LOT better. Druid spells are decent, but nothing spectacular. Shapechange is a cool idea, but more often than not your Druid is BETTER in their human form with some even slightly decent weaponry. The critters you get to change into, when you consider WHEN you gain the ability to change into them, tend to be underpowered. Clerics however have good spells (mostly defensive, but not ALL), they have the ability to spontaneously heal or harm (good vs. evil) and have better access to equipment, what with the Druid limitations. So, IMHO, Cleric's are better.

Edit: And don't forget turning undead.

 

Druids are going to get screwed in any CRPG because there are too many things that are hard to implement with them like spells that control the wheather or A Thousand Faces (I think that's the name of the ability, allows you to Change Self at will). In addition druids got screwed by the developers, especially their shapeshifts. Example: The fire elemental shapeshift limits your attacks to 1 per round that does d8 bldg plus d4 fire (with reflex save). Actual elementals get normal attacks per round that do 2d8 bldg plus 2d8 fire (no save) have much higher stats and many more resistances. They also made all summoned elementals hostile, they shouldn't be. Also, there are spells like Shambler that were very toned down. I believe in the Player's Handbook it says it summons d4+2 shambling mounds while in IWD2 it summons only 1.

 

Even if you use that rule, and you roll a 4, all 6 Shamblers are still going to get owned by the 1 Apocalyptic Boneguard that the cleric gets out with his L3 spell.

Druids do get 3 very nice defensive spells: barkskin, storm shell, and turtle shell. Unlike cleric buffs, though, they only affect one person. Storm shell is caster only, and turtle shell takes one out of a fight. When you do get all 3 on someone, though, that person becomes an almost invulnerable tank (nowhere near as good as someone with iron body, though), especially considering that these are L2 and L3 spells.

In the end, I still prefer clerics. Leave the bombarding to sorcerers. Druids might be able to compete with wizards for that position if if weren't for the fact that wizards get a lot more feats and thus better focus (not to mention better spells). Just gotta love that huge simultaneous buff/debuff effect from Prayer and Recitation.

 

Well, I'd have to go with Druids

True, some of their spells DID get nerfed in IWD2, but they have some other really cool spells...

Firestorm, Flame Strike, Sunfire (not sure about whether you get this without the Weidu mod), Incendiary Cloud (again, not sure about this either) all of the above are awesome spells which mesh well with Spirit of Flame.

Also, Smashing Wave, Whirlwind can quickly incapacitate large groups of enemies, after which Elemental Legion can gleefully dismantle all enemy opposition.

Tremor sucks in IWD2, but it HAS saved my a** quite a few times in the Severed Hand from all those Slayer Knights of Xvim.

Also, all those feats the wizard gets arent that important in my opinion.

The wizard NEEDS those feats to get all the (Greater) Spell Focus he needs in schools like Evocation and Necromancy and Enchantment...all of which are a must for a wizard in my opinion.

However, a Druid can pass on those, and just get himself GSF Evocation and GSF Transmutation...that pretty much covers all the neat druidic spells.

They can have awesome tanking capabilities with those three spells mentioned in an earlier post.

In the end, it comes down to the player, as I believe that all classes in the game can be incredibly potent.

And of those classes, I'd say the Druid is extremely powerful in IWD2, moreso than the Cleric.

True, they have all sorts of defensive spells etc etc...but I really couldnt care less about that...because I am not interested in sitting around when I could be singlehandedly dismantling the entire enemy opposition with my Druid...

PS: All you cleric lovers please dont flame me, I am really a Druid lover at heart, and I had to make a case for them. I know I havent really touched upon the powers Clerics have but really...like I said, it comes down to the player, as all the classes are balanced in the game.

PPS: If you have the Weidu mod, Druids OWN Clerics, any day of the week...a fully buffed Cleric would go down in a couple of rounds to the Druid then...imagine a Bark Skinned, Aura of Vitality'd, Storm Shell'd Druid, who casts Smashing Wave, stuns the cleric, and then proceeds to transfrom into an Elemental Half-Dragon, then tears him apart...now dont get into all the defenses the Cleric would get up, I am NOT interested in starting a debate OR a flame war...

 

Faraaz, just keep in mind that you are basing a lot of your opinion on strengths given to Druids in a mod. Now, the REASON that mod was created in the first place is because Druids are underpowered in IWDII. I agree that in 3E D&D, all of the classes are pretty well balanced (well, except for the Ranger pre 3.5), but as we all know PnP rules don't always translate well to a CRPG. Looking at IWDII, as created by BIS, Clerics are simply stronger and more useful than Druids. This was the question that was asked. Now, with mods, or in the PnP world, you are definitely able to make a better case for Druids.

Just food for thought there. I can certainly understand you wanting to make a case for a class you love. And as I said above, if we were talking PnP, or even NWN, I think you'd have a stronger case.

 

Well...Xindell, the part about the mod WAS a postscript...Druids can still pwn Clerics if played right...

 

Clerics. Having soloed through with a druid and then a cleric, I definitely noted the huge difference. I struggled with the druid, and waltzed through with the cleric.

 

Well... actually... a couple of the spells you mentioned early in your post Druids get because of the mod, and in fact are NOT part of the class in the unmodded game. And a few of the other spells you mentioned like Firestorm and Flame Strike as strengths for the Druid are in fact spells a Cleric gets as well. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to flame the Druid class. I agree that if played right the Druid CAN be nasty, but, frankly if someone of equal skill played a Cleric it would be just as nasty, probably moreso. Let me also just remind you that the original question was simply which is better, not which would win in a PvP fight.

Look, I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm simply pointing out where 'I' think your arguement is a bit flawed. Simply my opinion. I think you're going to have a hard time finding much support on this, simply because the vast majority of the people out there agree with me that, at least in unmodded IWDII, the cleric is simply a stronger 'overall' class. I respect that you like Druids, and again, if we start talking about PnP then this becomes a COMPLETELY different conversation.

Anyways, I'll leave it at that. Lets just agree to disagree.

 

I'll leave you to digest Xindell's wisdom. Now, as for your little snide remark about wizards:

1. A wizard gets a total of 6 more feats than a druid. Even with focus in Enchantment and Necromancy, that leaves an extra 2 feats to put elsewhere. Not only does the faster feat gain mean better DC earlier, it also means he is more versatile as to which element to use, since there are also the spellcraft-related feats.

2. One use of the wizard's 2 extra feats is to put them in spell penetration. Of course, the irony is that druids need spell penetration, whereas wizards do not. A wizard can simply turn to Horrid Wilting and Meteor Swarm, both of which can't be resisted, when fighting an enemy with high spell resistance (or attempt to lower it). A druid is stuck with an endless column of "Spell Resistance (Name)" messages.

 

Can someone give an example of a specific situation in the game where a druid's shapechanging is really useful. You have said above that most of the time it results, at best, in slightly higher attack and HP coupled with slightly lower AC. Whenever I shapechange, I just get beaten up - so I don't bother anymore.

 

How many times have you run into the "Spell Resistance" message in IWD2 Hojo Jojo? I've finished it thrice, all in normal mode, agreed, but still, outside of Severed Hand, not that many times. Besides, if you are developing a Druid as a spellcaster class, you have MORE than enough feats to take care of Evocation and Transmutation AND Spell Penetration, whereas a Wizard HAS to take Necromancy and Enchantment too, which are an extra four feats...which eats up into the Wizard's BONUS feats...which turns out to not be too much of a bonus after all...as a Druid never uses those.

If you want to make this a Druid vs Wizard debate, go ahead, but I frankly think its a waste of time.

[ January 13, 2004, 22:31: Message edited by: Faraaz ]

 

Sad...

[ January 14, 2004, 06:51: Message edited by: Xindell ]

 

Forget the important subvocal casting, spirit of flame, and scion of storm feats that a druid needs to be an effective caster. Lets just look at the 6 feats you named. Even with a human, a druid needs to be L12 to get 6 feats. By then, a wizard will have received 3 extra feats for being a wizard, meaning he lacks only 1 greater focus feat that you say wizards somehow "need." If we do throw in the 3 other feats I named, a druid won't be done with his casting feats until L21, by then the wizard will have gotten 5 extra feats. In addition to taking those extra focus feats, he will have another to put somewhere else. By L30 the wizard will have gotten 7 extra feats. Even if the druid were human and the wizard a race with no bonus feat, and the bombarding wizard somehow requires focus in transmutation and enchantment, the wizard still has 2 more free feats at his disposal than the druid.

Enemies with spell resistance are not all over the place, but the ones who have them happen to have high damage resistance. Madae is the most obvious example. She has 20/- damage resistance. A wizard has the option of casting Horrid Wilting or Meteor Swarm. A cleric has the option casting Holy Power and other damage raising buffs and enter in melee. A druid has the option of dying after doing no damage whatsoever.

There are very few circumstances in which shapeshifting is of any use.

1. You have monk mix in level(s). Your shapeshift results in higher dex than base, and the resulting gain in dex and wis AC outweighs the resulting loss in AC from armor, shield, and other equipment, and you haven't lost the bulk of your damage. Dire Panther is about the only shape that may fit this description at some point, provided that you don't mind the loss of spellcasting and potion drinking.

2. You are using the new shapeshifts from Weimer's Ease of Use mod. This unofficial mod changes the shapes so that they are actually worth something in combat.

 

As I've already said in my earlier post in this same thread, I don't want this to turn into a flame war on which class is best and which sucks.

Well, Hojo Jojo, the thread was for which was better of the two classes, Druids and Clerics. As such, I don't think we should be discussing the merits of the Druid vs Wizard debate, which might be very interesting but isnt required here. As I've said twice earlier, I didn't want to start any debates by giving out my opinions on the class which was being discussed here. I also said that turning this into a Druid vs Wizard debate is also a waste of time.

So...I'm not going to involve myself in this further.

@Dias: According to me Druids rule. According to other people, Clerics rule.

Let's not get the wizards into it

Have fun with your game, and let us know which you've picked.

[ January 13, 2004, 22:41: Message edited by: Faraaz ]

 

Then don't make incorrect and condescending remarks on the matter. The function of the original mention of wizards was to illustrate why it's not worth it to take a druid over a cleric due to a druid's slightly better bombarding abilities, to which you somehow felt like replying with a round of wizard bashing.

 

OK then - back to druids. if, for argument's sake, you WERE stuck with a druid in your party, what would be the key strategies for getting the MOST out of that character?

 

Hey guys! I just wanted to say how much I appreciate your replies, and I think it's safe to say that so far clerics got the upper hand regarding which class is stronger. About your druid vs. wizard debate, I just want to remind you people that it's druids vs. clerics, and besides there is no point in comparing druids and wizards.

I mean c'mon, wizard are built to blast and at the same time identify stuff, while druids are built to, hmmmmm.... well they are built to seem like great characters to play but they aren't.

Anyway keep responding and thank you for your time.

 

Well, druids are nice.. but Clerics are better, hands down.

Druid tries its best at being a wizard and a cleric at the same time, but fails rather miserably at both roles. What's a wizard without premium stuff like Mass Haste, Stoneskin (unmodded game), Delayed Blast Fireball, Horrid Wilting and Mirror Image? And what kind of a person calls him/herself a cleric if he/she can't even cast Bless, Prayer, Recitation, Raise Dead, Resurrection or Holy Aura?

The one and only reason I'd take a druid into a party is the Barkskin spell.. and since that spell doesn't reach full potential until 12 character levels have been reached, using Call Lightning and Static charge is at least SOME elixir to the wounds incurred by having to drag a sub-optimal character in my party. (Yes, I'm a powergamer.)