Dual-class vs. multi-class: what's your pick?

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Aside from the fact non-human races have bonuses/penalties to stats.
For equal char stats, which one would you go for , and why?

I've never really tried dual-classing, but from what I've read in this Forum, it can be quite powerful and give you access to somethings you couldn't get if you were multi -if I understand correctly:
- Dual-class usually have more hit points if the first class is a warrior class and you dual after the break point.
- Dual-class can get better weapon stats, attacks per round, Thaco than a similar multi would, if you distribute your points cleverly, no?

The only big setback I see with dual, is that it takes so long to activate the dual skills (i.e. getting to a level higher than your old class with your new one) that for a long while your character kind of sucks, so he is much less usefull to a party, and even less so if you try to solo.

 

Dual classing works well for me when I have another party member who can pick up the slack of the newly dualed PC/NPC. The most interesting party I have going is my all dual classed one.

If I'm working with NPCs, I'll try a multi class.

 

For Shadow's of Amn, yes - dual classing is very powerful. But once you get into ToB, and your character level starts skyrocketing into High Level Ability territory, I think you'll find yourself wishing you'd multi-classed instead, so you'll have access to the HLA's of BOTH classes.

I for one have never liked the idea of dual-classing. It seems like such a waste of potential to me. A multi-class character is usually only a level or two behind the solo-class characters, which isn't much to get upset over. If your character is a multi-class thief, this difference can be made up especially quickly (by kicking everyone out of the party and unlocking a ton of traps, for example).

The first one is true I suppose, but the hit point difference is negligable. I doubt you'll even notice.

The second one is incorrect, I believe - unless you're talking about a single-class fighter. They're the only class who can go beyond 2 stars in any weapon proficiency. All other multi-classes take on the proficiency possibilities of the most combat oriented class (i.e., fighter/mage gets fighter weapons, thief/mage gets theif weapons, etc.).

I'm sure Felinoid could correct me if I'm wrong - he's the resident expert on the subject these days.

 

Dead Rabbit - what I've heard is you can get 5 stars proficiency if you dual class from a warrior class.
For example, you have a fighter. Then you dual class him at level 10 or so. If you distribute your points in a certain manner you should have 5 stars somewhere, or at least more than 2.
Then you dual class to something else for example thief, and you put points in a category other than the one you have more than two points. When your fighter abilities come back, you should, from what I've read, have the high weapon stats developped as a fighter.
So you can have a fighter dual thief with 5 points in short sword. And that is not possible by multi.
Of course all of this supposes that I understood correctly what I read!
Also, I forgot to mention another plus of dual classing is you can get class kits dualled: i.e: berserker / druid, swashbucler/fighter, and so on..

 

I forgot about the kits - that is definitely a distinct plus to dual-classing that can't be achieved by a multi-class (gnomes excluded of course). In this case you'd be right. Bearing that in mind, the Kensai/Mage, the Kensai/Thief and the Berserker/Cleric are 3 of the most powerful builds in the game, if that's what you're interested in. Try doing a search here on those builds if you are - they've been discussed at length here over the years.

But I think you do have it wrong about proficiencies. If you start as a fighter, yes, you can dump 5 stars into short swords. But once you dual, and level up enough to reactivate your fighter class, the game considers you a multi-class and you're relegated to 2 stars in all weapons now.

Here's another thing to consider - in an unmodded game, the difference between 2 stars and 5 stars is really weak. Grand mastery was poorly implemented in this game, and I think it only gives you a -2 to your speed factor and an extra +1 to your thac0 with that weapon. That's it. Total waste of 3 stars, IMO. This is probably the biggest reason I've never played a straight fighter or fighter kit before - there's no benefit (other than quicker leveling) vs. a Paladin or a Ranger.

So with that in mind, 5 stars in a weapon should be removed as a consideration, because it doesn't help much at all.

 

The real reason I always pick multiclass is because of the HLAs. The ability to choose from more than one pool of abilities is awesome.

 

You have understood it correctly. A dual-class character can have more than two proficiency stars on a weapon, while a multi-class character can't have this.

In general, my opinion is that duall-classing is always preferable to multi-classing (and that's why it has more difficult conditions and requirements). The best dual-classes are:

1) Berserker-thief (best)
2) Berserker-Cleric (second best)
3) Berserker-Druid (third best)
4) Swashbuckler-Mage (fourth best)

Forget about Kensai-Mage as it has gained undeserved and false popularity. It's not a good choice.

 

Ditto

 

Unfortunately, no. You can give F->x characters five stars in anything after dualling, once you've gotten your fighter levels back. But really, you shouldn't even be able to get to specialization afterwards. I imagine Baldurdash changes this, though, as a rather obvious bug, but it likely puts it as you have it. Note, however, that this only applies to F->x duals, which aren't even half of what you can do; I'd consider it a very minor advantage at most.

Attacks per round are going to be equal (or worse, if dualling from fighter at level 9), unless you've got True GM from a mod, and THAC0 will be definitely worse. Dual from fighter at level 9 or 13, and you'll have a base THAC0 of 12 or 8 (respectively). Meanwhile, the multi-class fighter/x character will go all the way down to 0; that's ten points (give or take two) better than the dual.

Multis take the cake in some areas, but lose spectacularly in others. Kits are one example where duals have the edge, but that can be quickly eliminated by SK, applying a kit to a multi-classed character. Another area where they win is "limited skills". If you only need so much from one skillset, then you're better off dualling than multi-classing.

For example, one way to do a T->M is a type of character I call a "stealth bomber". To get one, you dump everything into the stealth skills, with the other thieving skills taken care of by a different character. As soon as you've maxed them out, you dual to mage. Once you get your thief levels back, you've got someone who can drop a fireball, stealth before it explodes, and deal free damage to enemies who will be none the wiser due to the limited AI.

Now, a multi-class M/T could also do this (go Jan!), and do regular thief stuff besides, but their mage skills will be poorer than the dual's would have been, due to having to split XP. Levels and quick advancement are the advantage here, at the cost of the full ability set.

EDIT: Basically, it comes down to a single decision.

Option 1: Multi-class and have slower advancement.
Option 2: Dual in the early to mid-levels, and have only half the skills of the first class.
Option 3: Dual late and spend most of the game with only one set of abilities. (This only applies to dualling from warriors and thieves, who plateau at level 21 and ~15 respectively. Spellcasters don't have any "stop-point" for their abilities.)

[ July 29, 2006, 00:02: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

 

Baldurdash doesn't change this.

IMO, the reason a F->X dual can get 5* in a weapon prof. is because of Anomen, the only dual classed F->X (C) in the game. And if they made the exception for him, then why not do it for every F->X dual?

From my brief understanding of 2e rules, it should not be this way. I don't remember it being this way in BG.

 

In 2e, there are no grandmastery rules. You're either Proficient, or Specialized (which is only available to single classed Fighters).

 

There are GM rules in 2E. Just not in the core rules. Check Players Option: Combat & Tactics.

 

That was probably the most useless addition ever to hit the shelves.

 

I'm partial to nearly everything added in the Players Option books, but I'm not terribly fond of the Grandmastery rules either. I think it widens the gulf between fighters and Paladins/Rangers too much. I've actually thought about modding the game so that only fighters (and some kits like archers or swashbucklers) get to put ** into weapons and everyone else would be restricted to a single slot. It would, however, be a compatibility nightmare, and I'd have to interactively check for and append various mod npc's, etc, so I've never bothered.

 

Sikret, could you specify the reasons for your dual-class rankings please? why is Berserker/thief so good? or swashbuckler/mage?
thanks

 

@Brettoni,

While I do not presume to speak for Sikret, almost any dual class option that has the thief as it's second class will be very powerful, due to the UAI ability, as that essentially removes any and all restrictions from the original class. That having been said, I would think that a kensai-thief or a wizard slayer thief would be just as powerful as a beserker thief once UAI rolls around.

That having been said, I still think you are handicapping yourself by taking a dual class over a multi-class due not only to having one instead of two sets of HLAs to chose from, but when you start getting HLAs.

In the example where you take a fighter or fighter kit up to level 13, that means you need to get 1.25 million XP. This experience do NOT count towards the 3 million earned for your first HLA. In other words, you will need to earn a total of 4.25 million XP before you get your first HLA. WIth a multi-classed character, you will earn your first HLA as soon as you reach 1.5 million XP in each of your classes. So a multi-classed F/T will earn several HLAs before a F13/T dual class earns it's first HLA.

 

what is UAI? tks

 

Oh, my bad. UAI stands for "Use Any Item" which is one of the HLAs you can pick from as either a bard or a thief. As the name implies, Use Any Item allows the character to use any item, even if it is normally restricted by that class. As a result, kensais can wear armor, helms, and use shields, and wizard slayers can use any magic equipment they like, thus negating the disadvantages of playing that class.

 

OK, thanks for the explanations Aldeth!