Dutch Flag Prohibited

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Taken from here.

I'm curious how this will turn out. I know here in the states our citizenry would go crazy.

 

The British flag, Scottish Flag, English Flag and Flag of Ulster are banned in lots of places in 'British' N.Ireland. Interestingly enough that the Dutch flag is not banned even thought it was Dutch King William that conqured N.Ireland.

Of course this is supported by the US Envoy Reisse over here but then again whats new about this?

Besides a flag is nothing to worship anyway.

 

Dutch extreme-right racists often have a small dutch flag on their clothing as one of their symbols.
I think this is important to now before you start ranting

 

Sadly racists and nazis have kidnapped many of the national European flags and instilled whole new meaning in them. By banning the use of them we are legitimizing these bozos though and giving them the flags. Better to launch a campaign to get people to associate the flags with what they are supposed to represent. All this said, a flag is just a bunch of patterns of colour on a piece of cloth. Nothing to get riled up about.

 

Ah, well that actually makes sense. If the flag is being perverted to mean something else. However, I do find it outrageous that the flag could be subverted that way.

If a people can't take pride in who they are, don't they cease to be a people?

 

This is actually the first I heard of this particular case. I find it odd that Dutch flags are being banned (I heard of cases before, in which people with Dutch flags on their bomber jackets were denied entry to certain pubs), while the wearing of Lonsdale clothes is still allowed. The Dutch flag is still the symbol of our entire nation, while the Lonsdale emblem is mostly a symbol of racists in Holland.

I hope this doesn't go too far, people should still be able to hang their flags out on something like Queensday.

 

Snook, what is a people? A bunch of people living within arbitrarly assigned lines on a piece of paper with a drawing of the world on it. We are humans, why do we need to divide ourselves further?

 

Throughout human history we have been a tribal society.

In my case I get great comfort out of the sense of community I have. This starts at the smallest of levels. In my case it is the street that I live on. My neighbors who come from all walks of life (color, religion, age, nationality, etc.) have bonded together into a very nice neighborhood. People help each other out and are very friendly. Do we consider ourselves "exclusive" because of arbitrary lines on a piece of paper? Do we think we are dividing ourselves from the rest of humanity? The answer to both questions is a resounding no.

Now let's take this one step further. If someone moves onto our street and doesn't want to be a part of "our community" that is O.K. as long as they do not interfere with what we as a community want to do. Now if someone moves in and actively wanted to destroy what the community wants, that is a major problem in my opinion.

Now community expands and doesn't only include the micro level of someone's street. It expands as far as it wants. Currently humanity's sense of community has only expanded as far as the national level. We do not think of ourselves as Earthlings. Who knows maybe that will change someday if and when we colonize other parts of the universe.

Your question seems to be implying "Why do we need nations, nationalism, etc.". My answer to that question is that I do not believe that at any time in human history an individual accomplished something truly great by themselves. A general needs soldiers, A scientist needs engineers, and an industrialist always needs trained employees.

Whereas some people consider nationalism/society as a form of racism/discrimination I see all the positives associated with it. Without a sense of belonging I believe things would descend into anarchy.

 

This is off topic but I will continue nonetheless. I for one feel very little relationship with people circumstance have put me together with. My neighbours are just people who happen to live close to me and who occasionally make a lot of annoying noise. The communities I value are those made voluntarily by shared "attraction", community of friends or even like this internet community of people from all over the world who share similar interest. I have stronger tribal bands with you Big Snook than with the old wino who lives in the apartment above me. I personally cant stand people who try to get a forced cozy community feeling out of neighbourhoods and the like, why have relations with people you share nothing but place of residence with?

As long as there are those arbitrary tribal divides you treasure so much there will be conflicts between them. Heck, I remember when I was in upper secondary school there was quite a fierce rivalry between my school and one other which started out with reasonable innocent pranks but soon escalated into pure vandalism and out right assaults. Takes so little to spark the sense of communal beloning into hostility towards those that do not belong.

 

Then again the lack of forming bonds with a community makes it easier to ignore what is going on around you. This was the foundation of what in New York City became known as The Genovese Syndrome. In my opinion the actions of a few morons should never dictate anything.

 

I think this is silly. The problem is not with the people carrying the flag on their bags but with the people who are somehow provoked by it. Anyone who gets 'provoked' by a little flag is the one with the problem that should be dealt with.

On a side issue, there is a big petition going on in New Zealand to change our flag. Whilst I sympathise with some of the reasons for wanting to change it, I think there are bigger issues to deal with. To put it into perspective, how many foreigners even know (or care) what the NZ flag looks like?

 

Well, I imagine Britian cares considering we currently house the Union Jack on our flag, a matter of pride for them really and to remove that from our flag would be a symbol of departure from our British roots. And what would the alternative be? A 'Maori' design type flag that really only accomidates about 5-10% of the population? (oops, I'm ranting again. Not at you HB, but at the people who want a flag change).

I agree with what HB has said about who the problem resides with. It's not the people carrying the flag, it's the people who are offended by it who have the problem. I should be allowed to carry the NZ flag down any public street and not need worry about harassment or assault from anyone. If you're offended by the thing you might want to check your heritage - perhaps an ancestor copulated with a bull or something, I hear they are offended by flags of the red variety, perhaps there is a link?

 

Good points, Abomination, but I doubt if even the average British person cares about what our flag looks like. I bet if I did a random poll, many of them would not even be able to describe what our flag looked like.

But the main reason we shouldn't change is because we'll never be able to agree on something and there'll be just as many people who don't like the new flag as don't like the current one. So we'd be in exactly the same position but we'll have spent loads of money coming up with the new design and replacing the 1000s of flags all around the country. Far better to spend the time and resources on hospitals or schools or roads or a giant world class rugby stadium or something.

 

I think it should depend on the reason one is displaying the flag. Patriotism is fine. National pride is a dangerous field, but hey, there is such a thing in humans as pride of their ancestry.

However, if national symbols are used to aggrieve foreign nationals, it's wrong on two accounts: hurting their feelings and insulting one's own national symbols by such perverted use.

There's not much of a reason to wear your flag on your clothing. That some immigrant with criminal disposition could assault the boys is another problem.

Of course, fairness demands that if minorities are allowed to display their symbols with pride and they do that often, members of the majority should also have that right.

 

I think this is completely stupid. So stupid, in fact, that I cannot believe it, yet I assume it is true.

Of all the people, Moroccan boys had problems with that flag? And where? In Netherlands? Not in Morocco? Don't the Dutch have laws concerning their flag? If they do, then hatred towards the flag and what it represents can be recognised as an act of hostility towards the nation.

These are immigrants. If they do not want to play according to the rules, request that they leave the country. They are to abide the rules. If they want to impose their point of view upon the society they'd asked for sanctuary, tell them to leave it. They should express at least gratitude. If they break the and do it outside of their legal ability to do so, ie. through democratic voting, they are breaking the law, and as such they can be demanded to leave.

First they ask you for a handout, and you grant it, even though you don't get anything in return. Then they start raising requests about their living conditions and social status, and by all means you allow them a chance of equality. Then they start to demand things they have absolutely no right to, and which are hard to achieve for even the natives -- they want it for granted. What will you do now? The only logical choice seems to be to say no.

OTOH... Netherlands! Do give in! Give in to all the Moroccan (and other minorities') demands, give them all the power, allow them to do everything, and make their position superior to the native Dutch. By all means, make Netherlands a Moroccan colony. See how they will start treating you a second after they get their hands on reins of power. Set up a counter-example on how to deal with minorities.

 

You all take a close look at the ''source'' of this story.

I did and I wouldn't trust this source if it said the sun was going to shine tomorrow...

 

Well the source meant nothing to me. However, I didn't read an outcry from our Dutch friends on this board that it was a hoax.

 

toughluck, the article is about how a school director may or may not have tried to prohibit a certain display of the dutch flag in his school. For vague reasons that may not have been presented unbiased by the author. Shouldn't your rant (if you have to have any) rather be directed towards this man than towards some "immigrants who don't play according to the rules"?

After all, nowhere in the (dubious?) source did I see a mention of any Moroccan student demanding a prohibition of dutch flags.

 

I still didn't hear anything about it on the news, or read about it in the news paper, so I searched on some Dutch sites, but I can't find anything on any reliable news source. I also looked at the school's website and it clearly says that they did not ban the flags. The rumor probably got into the world because some people misinterpreted an article in a local news paper. I doubt this story is true, considering what I have seen about it, but I guess none of the Dutch on this site jumped high or low, because that is the current atmosphere here in Holland. Situation like this can and probably do happen in Holland. And if it isn't the authorities (or school principles in this case) who forbid you to wear a certain logo or brand of clothing, some non-native Dutch will probably tell you, in a less than friendly way.

 

This may be off-topic, but:
When I read the news paper this morning (okay, it was noon ) I couldnt help but think of these two posts.
There was an article about the native Dutch leaving their nation. By the thousands. Mainly due to a change of mentality that is felt everywhere, the Netherlands being overcrowded - and fear of the consequences of a failed multicultural policy.
Recent events seemingly have shaken our neighbour's society thoroughly.

Here is a little something that echos said article.
I find this truly troubling. What is going on there in the Netherlands?