Dutch say 'No' to EU constitution

Remove all ads!

The Dutch have voted against an EU constitution by over 60%. This after "EU stalwart" France voted against it by 55%. In the case of the Dutch this isn't so suprising - they are the highest contributors per capita in Europe. Whereas I beleive France receive a net subsidy overall so there reult was more suprising.
I am interested to see peoples opinion on the EU. I assume there will be a distinct contrast between that of the older member states and the newer states.
I would personally vote against this if Blair really is stupid enough to put this referendum. My reasons - simple - I'm selfish and as my country is a net contributor, I can't see any real benefit to myself or the people that really matter to me.
Am I being short sighted here - can someone sell the idea of an EU constitution to me?

Edit - You may want to close this - theres a similar topic in ALS.

[ June 02, 2005, 14:13: Message edited by: Tap Dancing Oyster ]

 

Oyster, I'm not a fan of the EU as it stands right now, but here's the argument FOR the EU that seems to make the most sense to me:

By bringing member nations into a unified economic whole, workers all over Europe can be assured that other labourers in similar industries do not have an unfair advantage. In addition, by pooling their resources, they can achieve effects similar to that of "economies of scale". They can therefore sell their products at rates that are better for all. See OPEC for more details on control of prices, regulation of production, and otherwise grabbing the rest of the world by the short hairs.

In addition, it's always nice to have happy neighbours. If they are happy, and you have a good trade relationship with you, they are less likely to take actions against you, because that would disrupt trade. So by being a net contributor, the "have" countries can reduce the chance that one of the "have not" countries will get torqued off and decide to TAKE what they wish by force.

That's the line, anyhow. I'm not saying I buy it -- if the goal of a "have" region helping a poor region is to get that region on its feet so that the aid can stop, that's great. As has been shown in Canada's case, however, the "have" location (Alberta) is often locked into aid for extremely long terms while the "have nots" (Ontario, Quebec and the Atlantic pogey boys) sit back, siphon our economic strength, and laugh that they were able to manipulate an altruistic ideal for their own personal profits. I hate the East with a passion.

[ June 02, 2005, 21:52: Message edited by: Lord Keldin Depaara ]

 

I voted 'yes'

Just for the record. I have my reasons and to be honest I have no desire to spell them out here.

 

@ Lord Keldin Depaara - I know this is but if you check the actual stats Alberta and Ontario are the two net Canadian contributing provinces over the last several years with the others all being subsidized at least some (and in many cases all) of the time.

Griping about how we are subsidizing the other Provinces is probably just as popular in Ontario as it is in Alberta although I do concede that you Albertans are currently getting shafted worse than we are in Ontario.

Still, reversals do occur from time to time. If Newfoundland actually reaches the projected oil production levels they could reach the same economic footing as Alberta.

 

@ Keldin - I would agree that the economies of scale argument makes sense. On the other hand the giver/taker arguement will always be the main stumbling block.
Another massive problem seems to be a lack of trust and understanding between member nations. I dare say that many brits have a distrust for Germany (mostly bred by the media) and I reckon this feeling is generally reflected right back (I am not condoning this by the way) Not only this but there is the language barrier. Being English this is rather embarressing - most Brits know little more than a bit of basic French or perhaps German. On a recent trip to Brussels you can clearly see most people speak about 3 or 4 languages fairly fluently.
There is also the problem with corruption/inefficiency in the EU - I know someone who works there - I have been told you have to do something utterly crazy to get the sack. They have about 3 times as much holiday as an average worker over here. They don't pay income tax as such. He also told me of a scenario - which I will adjust here to protect his identity. Lets say that a certain EU delegation was offered financial assistance for a project they were doing for a country outside the EU. That assistance was declined because a certain manager in the EU couldn't be arsed to sign another batch of paper work. My friend kept his mouth shut because thats just the way things are done. This assistance was to the tune of nearly 100,000 euros - apparently this is a common occurance.
To give you an idea of the work ethic - I have also been told certain people at the EU turn up for work in the morning and then attend another job in the afternoon.
Most Brits would be thinking something like - those corrupt Europeans as this point. But a great percentage of the dept heads within the EU are Brits or Irish (a fact that you never here in the English Press)

 

I wonder if they need any engineers...

 

- sounds good doesn't it. I have been trying to get my mate to find me a job.
Brussels is a strange sort of city though.

 

The whole idea of a united Europe, under one rule, acting as one people, is a hot air balloon with no air in it, it will never fly.

I voted no, screw Europe and their constitution.

 

Sorry gang -- JSBB, I'd like nothing better than to see the East Coast become an economic powerhouse -- IF that meant they'd take their hands out of our pockets. I fear that if our situations were reversed, though, the East wouldn't do a blasted thing to help Alberta now.

Back to the topic, this Canadian discussion highlights the difficulty of trying to maintain an association of vastly different regions and have everyone feel they are being fairly treated. I don't mind giving someone $20 when they're hard up, but I'm not giving them my ATM card and PIN!