Faith

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I am not entirely sure what I hope to gain from posting this, except maybe some insight.

I have never been much for faith as many people see it. I don't go to church, I don't pray, I don't think that everything will come out all right in the end. I would like to think that we are all going to do all right, but I just can't.

I enjoy life, don't get me wrong. I know that there are good things that happen, but they can never out weigh the bad. I am an optimist, but it only go's so far.

Reading other polls, I envy the people like Chev and Hacken Slash. They have faith, if not in "God" then in something. I don't.

I am still young, and I know that there is plenty to see and do in this world, but there is always the thought "Does it matter".

I mean, people live, and people die. Nothing can change that. One day, the Earth will crumble and collapse, and nothing that anybody will have ever done will have made a difference.

What is faith going to do for us then?

 

Here comes my rather controversial take on faith. I see faith as the easy way out of the harshness that is life. People turn to faith either because they have been raised (I like to call it brainwashed but it is a bit too harsh a term) to have a certain faith or because they are not able to deal with the uncertainty and seemingly pointlessness of life. Faith is for me a cop out, something you turn to because oyu cant handle reality as it is. For me faith is no different from drugs or alcohol although faith isnt as destructive on a personal level as drugs or alcohol tend to be, however, on a global level faith is a thousand times more destructive than any drug.

 

Joacquin, I can tell you that I wasn't brainwashed. My father wasn't a cristian, and his mother are a jew, but I am still a christian. I became a christian only a year, and I can ensure you, I am not brainwashed. And from what I have learned, so is not my girlfriend. We just like to believe that the world is not all proven and such, that unnatural being and things exists, that there is a god that is above all.

 

I never touch "faith". I see no value in it. Some religionists are fond of saying "Reason isn't the ONLY means to know about the world!". The implication being that "faith" can somehow tell us something about the reality we live in by some consistent yet unexplainable method.

Faith me some knowledge then! DO not reason the point with me as even the "faithist" here always do. Show me that humans are "more" than physical, carbon-based lifeforms whose sensory organs obtain information and whose brains process the data.
Send some "faith-information" to my soul or pray me some facts!". Intuit me some knowledge of God's existence!

BTW, having no faith should not be depressing adn whether one finds it depressing or not should not figure into why one will believe something is true.

One can be "brainwashed" at ANY age. I have met and spoken with former cultists who were in tehir mid-thrities when they were brainwashed into a religious cult!

The one thing all brainwashed people have in common is that none of them believe themselves to be brainwashed.

 

@ RQ

I hope you're not suggesting that everyone who has faith has been "brainwashed." As it is not only insulting, but untrue and incredibly ignorant. I respect your atheism, as at times I've grappled with the idea myself. But this:

Was that a joke? Because you look like one for typing it. This is a clear demonstration to me that you don't understand the meaning of faith. At all. And I'm no bible-beater.

By the way, kicking everyone's skull in by berating them is no way to prove a point. Try to be a little less condescending, please. If faith is such a sham, it should be easily proven without calling everyone who has it "brainwashed."

 

I don't see faith as being as bad as some of the others would make it out to be, Jag. I mean, I believe in God, I guess, or at least some equivalent thereof. Something has to be out there, for there are way too many things that "reason" can't explain. Then again, faith's not too talkative about some subjects either.

I think that maintaining a healthy balance of both is the way to go. I mean, I'm not going to preach to everyone in the whole world about my faith, that's just not me. I keep it inside, tell people who ask, and that's pretty much it.

Besides, you're still young, Jag. Plenty of time to "find" God. But, finding him has a way of changing people, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. I suppose it all depends on if and how you plan on practicing your particular faith.

Most religions can change your outlook on life, but only if you let it. I think that most people go out looking for a change, because they just can't life live the way they've been living it anymore. In the end, I truly believe that having faith in anything is a good thing, but you can most certainly live your life without it.

 

I have faith, but i don't really believe in having organized factions for faith. I believe that everyone should have their own little "religion", as long as its not destructive to other people. Besides, some people tend to judge by religion, (i.e. a lot of people for some reason don't like Baptists) but I have friends that are Baptists, Catholics, Buddhists, and atheists.

 

Religion IS the cause of destruction. If there were no such thing as religion the world would be swell.

[ April 22, 2004, 23:50: Message edited by: Sarevok Anchev ]

 

Sarevok, no offence, but that is just laughable. If then, people would only not have any morals and would kill eachother whenever they wanted, because they would not know that it was wrong, but they would also only think about themself and do whatever they would like to get their means through which would lead to wars that would be much more cruel than normal ones.

 

I guess deep inside I have something resembling faith, even though I could not name what I believe in if my life depended on it; there is a polytheistic/pagan bent as well as some christian elements.
Its not a big thing, however, nothing that would strongly dominate my life or give me any direction (other then having respect for what is surrounding me). I dont expect it to, nor do I feel a need of it providing me some kind of comfort. Maybe that will change when I grow older.
Actually, I am quite happy with my relaxed handling of it all, even if it is a bit vague.

Others who are of strong faith and who experience an inner need for it have my understanding (after all, I can relate to them to a limited degree), respect and full support - as long as they dont try to force their ways on others or wave their beliefes in the faces of people around them. For me religion is something very personal... nothing for huge crowds. Crowds are dangerous. Someone chooses to impose certain restrictions & rules on him/herself (rules made by other humans, btw) - fine. Thats his decision, not mine, not anybodies else.

Sorry, as all attempts to express myself on the topic of religion its quite confusing. Seems like I live in a world of uncertainties, which is perfectly okay for me.

 

In my opinion (which I don't usually voice here), faith is not something that is always one-way (that is, man -> God). It is also the idea (in some religions) that there is a God that has faith in you that you can do something.

In a secular sense, I believe faith exists. I have little doubt that there is at least one parent in the world with complete faith in his or her child, or one man with complete faith in his brother.

So in my opinion, faith helps us instill meaning in a person or entity (ex. God). We imbue someone with meaning, and they become important to us, and we have someone to put our faith in and love. People die, but I think that it is better to have "loved and lost than to not have loved at all."

One last thing: it keeps irking me when people say that religion causes war and death and therefore it sucks. In my opinion, religion is a big part of cultures, and cultures clash, and people die. And in the bigger picture, culture is a big part of people, and people clash because they're different, and they die. Take away religion, and I believe that people will still kill each other. I guess you could kill everyone person or eliminate their free will, and have a nice peace, though.

 

My take on it? Just go watch Dogma - Kevin Smith pretty much hit the nail on the head for me, personally.

 

@Death rattle:

No I was not. I was addressing the poster who replied before me who seemed to be making the case that HE could not be brainwashed because his parents did not teach him about christianity.

I have known born-and-raised ATHEISTS who were brainwashed into believing ridiculous things.

Now now...ad hominems.*Tsk *Tsk


The above was directed specifically at people who make the sketchy assertion that "reason alone cannot lead you to truth/knowledge" or "There are many things which reason cannot tell you(the implication being that "faith" CAN!)".

No one EVER supports these statements and my rant above(inspired by Asimov's rant against faith) is a challenge of sorts for people making this claim: Use some means OTHER THAN REASON to inform me. "Faith' me some knowledge then or at least describe the mechanism by which faith works to obtain or help one obtain factual knowledge.

WHICH meaning? Words shift meaning with context and usage adn the word "faith" means something different depending on the faithist in particular adn the "gear" he is in.
Often I will be in a debate with a theist who accuses atheists or scientists of having or relying upon "faith". When I tell them I have NONE adn never touch the stuff they retort "Don't you trust that your mother will not try and murder you?/Don't you hope for the best?/Don't you believe a chair will support your weight before you sit on it?"

In other words "faith" is, in THAT context simply another word for Hope, trust or belief. WHen I point this out they backtrack and assure me that it is much more than that and again try to assert teh "comparable to reason" angle.

A clear definition is NEVER really given unfortunately.

I agree, which is why I try not to do that. Doesn't stop SOME PEOPLE fropm reading such INTO whatever I DO post though.

Tell you what; if YOU can PROVE to me that Santa CLaus does NOT exist then I will agree that it is my duty to "disprove faith".

Until then, and with good reason the burden of proof is on YOU making the positive assertion.

 

@ RQ

Do me a favor. Next time you accuse someone, falsely, of an ad hominem attack (hint: look up "ad hominem"), try not to start off with a childish name call. Or dismiss arguements before they're made by calling people "faithists." It's kind of a "pot calling the kettle black" kind of thing.

Like I said, misunderstanding faith. Faith is meant more as a tool for understanding than for education. While faith doesn't offer a technical, evident explaination of say, why life exists, it does offer a form of understanding that is more meaningful to some people than that which the scientific explanation would provide.

While someone totally reliant on faith might believe that God created the universe, someone totally reliant on science and evidence will believe in the big bang. But a more open-minded person, who values both the understanding of faith and the proof of science, might conclude that the big bang was a tool God used to create the universe.

Or, another way of saying that is that faith means different things to different people. I suppose the universal definition of "faith" is "a belief in something for which one has no proof." Well, even though you say above:

You also say:

So you state here that one cannot prove that something does not exist, only that something does exist. Well, whether you want to admit it or not, you do have faith. Just a different kind. You believe, but cannot prove, that God does not exist. You, as an atheist, have faith in the non-existance of a higher power.

When you say things like ""Send some "faith-information" to my soul or pray me some facts!" obviously meant to belittle those you disagree with (in this case, the "faithists") there isn't really much to "read into" your rather obvious sentiment.

 

@DarkGoddess

I wouldn't say that I am trying find 'God' but like I said, I envy those who do. As I read above (correct me if I am wrong), Death Rabbit believes in God, and RuneQuester believes in not believing in God.

If this is true, am I missing out on something by not believing either way?

 

@Jaguar

You seem to be able to stir up some messy threads, my friend .

I would have to modify your summation slightly:

Death Rabbit believes in God (we won't try to define DR's perception of God, but we do know he's at all the Laker's home games )

RuneQuester does not believe in anything...at least that's what he believes .

In answer to your last question...in my opinion "yes"...but you ultimately have to determine what you seek in this world.

 

@ Jag

Not at all. As far as I'm concerned, I don't think you should worry about it. I know people who've gone their entire lives going to church because of obligation or family pressure, and never once admitting out loud that they've felt nothing all those years. I've also known people who "found God" after years of bitter non-belief, and it changed their lives for the better. Point is, it's different for everyone. One day you'll realize which path is right for you. Maybe you'll toe the "middle of the line" like I seem to be doing now.

When I was younger, I became fed up with the church of my birth and community (the Mormon church). My mother, and I'll always love her for this, told me that if I wasn't getting what I wanted from the mormon church, then I should check out other options. I attended churches of other faiths, even outside of Christianity. I wanted to see what else was out there. I personally came to the conclusion that faith, for me, was important to me. But picking a particular "flavor" was irrelevant, because all faiths have good ideas and teachings, and are the "true faith" for those who believe in them. There's no church on earth that doesn't think it's faith is the "truest" of them all. My assertion is, none of them are really wrong.

Point is, you're still young. I wouldn't sweat it. Live your life, and your beliefs will take hold. You can have "faith" in that.

 

You tell him, old-timer!

Seriously, though, I agree with DR, even though I come from the other side of the fence. I don’t have faith, nor do I wish I did. Nor do I find my life devoid of “meaning”, because I have no need for it to have meaning. But that’s just me; others are different. My advice is much like DR’s – live your life the way you see fit, and let your beliefs (whatever they may be) develop based on your experiences.

And Death Rabbit, are you sure you're not in your 30’s or 40’s?