Fallen Classes

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Howdy-ho!

I've had a bunch of questions regarding Fallen characters in mind for awhile, and it only became important until now, for a certain roleplayful character I'm trying to make.

If a Paladin or Ranger's alignment is SK'ed to a non-allowed one (LE Paladin, for instance) does he automatically fall upon loading the game? Or is it merely with low reputation/in-game alignment change (Hell Trials, Helm of Alignment Change)?

If a Fallen Paladin/Ranger is imported from BG1, is he considered as a Fighter when he is deemed to choose a kit (if he was vanilla, that is), or is choosing a kit while fallen forbidden?

If say, a Paladin or Ranger falls from his class, is he considered as a vanilla Fighter in all regards of item-wearing capabilities and Ranger enemies? (I.E. Can a paladin still wear the Blessed Bracers from Watcher's Keep? Can a Ranger still gain the bonuses from his favored enemies and wear Montolio's Cloak? Can a Paladin use his innate Detect Evil/Lay on Hands? Can a Ranger still stealth?)

As ever, replies are appreciated and a special cookie will be awarded to the person who can solve my problem.

[ January 22, 2006, 02:02: Message edited by: Ziggyveld ]

 

These answers are about 70% sure (as a fellow programmer). Anyone else feel free to correct me if you are sure of the answer.

Had I been coding the game, it would either make him instantly fall or crash the game. But since it's an out-of-game change, I think the latter is more likely. As always with something that the engine doesn't like, even if you pull it off there's a risk of bugs. Can't say for sure though.

As I understand it, a fallen character still has their original class flagged somehow, so you wouldn't be able to pick a fighter kit. In fact, you may even get a choice of which Paladin kit you want to not have. It's also possible that you become 'un-Fallen' if you import from BG1, but I wouldn't count on it.

100% sure that the abilities go away, and 99.9% sure that they would not be able to use items specific to their former class. These are the very first things that any programmer would be thinking of when implementing this change, and I'd be quite astonished if they somehow forgot them.

TESTING UPDATE:
Yes, you indeed get to choose which [Paladin/Ranger] kit you wish to have fallen from, and you keep your fallen status on importing. You are still a [Paladin/Ranger], but you cannot use any of their abilities or class-specific items.

And SKing alignment to an improper one doesn't seem to do anything; at least not right away. I'd still be wary of bugs, though.

[ January 22, 2006, 02:49: Message edited by: Felinoid ]

 

Many thanks to you, Felinoid -

If you don't mind, I have two more questions:

Say I gave Set Snares to a Ranger and gave him 100 in Set Traps through SK, would he be able to drop them using the innate ability? If so, will traps improve per level just as a thief class would?

Will Fallen Paladins/Rangers get to pick their respective class' HLAs, or do their class-specific HLAs get ruled out (Tracking/Summon Deva comes into mind)?


Edit: Awesome ! Many thanks to you, and here's your complementary catnip cookie.

[ January 22, 2006, 03:06: Message edited by: Ziggyveld ]

 

I really wouldn't recommend that. As PnP-worthy as it is, I'm not sure whether or not the engine could handle it. Then again, I may just be being cautious in saying that, since I haven't heard of any difficulties regarding SKed innates that I can remember. Use (and test) at your own risk.

It appears that you do get the Paladin/Ranger HLAs. The Fallen Paladin I was testing with was able to get and use Summon Deva when I CLUAed her XP up to 3m.

 

Ah-ah! While you were posting, I also did my fair share of testing, and I have found out the following:

SK'ing Set Traps as an innate ability *will* work, and you can also dictate the game to use what kind of trap (Regular or Bounty Hunter's) you want (so as long as you use the "Kit" option in the innate screen - then pick any of the thief kit for the normal ones, or Bounty Hunter for the ranged ones) From what I've seen, they all act as if you were a first level thief for their special effects. However, you'll need to put some points in the thief skill Set Traps, or else you won't be able to use them.

Unfortunately, I have come across two more dilemmas:

I want my Neutral Evil Ranger to use the Assassin Kit's abilities - Poison Weapon and Set Snares, to be precise. Fortunately, I can add these skills and have them work without a problem. Unfortunately, they will not follow level progression, and as they are for a multiplayer game, I do not intend to SK them everytime I level. Is there a way to "force" these skills to show up (perhaps by putting Assassin as my kit using SK?) or will I just have to live with it?

Secundo, Charm Animal is a skill I'd like to get rid, for roleplay purposes. I *can* remove it using SK, but only for that level. Whenever the character levels up he'll just regain *plus* his other CAs. Is there anything I can do to fully remove this class feature other than permanently Fall?

PS. Thanks for the helpfulness so far, Felinoid!

Edit: Setting Assassin as my Kit did not work, but neither did it crash the game. I suppose it simply got ignored, as when I leveled up I still gained the Charm Animal spells and none of the Assassin skills.

Guess I'll have to live with having a fix number of skills rather than a dynamic amount per level, then.

[ January 22, 2006, 03:46: Message edited by: Ziggyveld ]

 

This is far too much putzing for a simple character premise. I'd suggest getting IWD2 or NWN for the 3e rules if you want some sort of NE Ranger/Assassin/whatever. Bending the rules is one thing, but ignoring them completely ruins the game.

If you're determined to get this to work in BG2, though, I can try to guide you to a better alternative if you tell me exactly what it is you're trying to accomplish.

 

You might want to look in to creating your own Ranger kit with all the abilities you want. You can do pretty much anything you like with a custom kit. I've no experience with them though, unfortunately, so I can't give you any advice outside of grabbing a copy of Near Infinity and an already-made custom kit mod, cracking it open and seeing how it works.

 

@Prine -

Trust me; if I had the ability to, I'd do a Fallen Ranger/Paladin variant as a fighter kit. Unfortunately, my coding skills are on par with my cooking.

However, it's quite possible to work this around with Shadowkeeper for most details, which I've found surprising, given I've messed around most restrictions for Rangers and managed *not* to crash the game. Turns out Shadowkeeper is extremely stable and flexible - playing with it is almost as amusing as beating up Noober.

Edit: It also turns out becoming Fallen after changing my alignment, skills and whatnot does not affect anything but losing my status and Animal Friendship - my other skills stay untouched and the character himself is no different. What I'm worried about, however, is trying to regain status *after* being Neutral Evil and falling, which is why I'm redundant on Falling in the first place and rather roleplaying it.