Firetooth vs. Short Bow of Gesen

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I'm not asking which one you prefer (you're always free to tell of course), I'd just like to have some information about them.

Correct me if I'm wrong:

Firetooth +4
Damage: 7-14 (bolt +2: 3-10; crossbow: +4)
Thaco: +6 (bolt +2: +2; crossbow: +4)

Short Bow of Gesen
Damage: 2-14 (arrow: 1-6; bow: +1-8)
Thaco: +4 (bow: +4)

Let's say I'm attacking a lich with Protection from Normal Weapons: will the Gesen Bow be able to hit him ?

Let's say I'm attacking a lich with Improved Mantle (invulnerability to all weapons except for those of +4 or better enchantments): will they be able to hit him or do I need to use special bolts/arrows ?

Thanks for enlightening me.

 

Can't crunch numbers on the attack/damage at the moment, but I can tell you that if you use them without ammunition, they hit as +4 weapons (and thus would count as magical, and would penetrate improved mantle). If you use ammunition, they hit as whatever enchantment level the ammunition uses. But they do still attribute their damage/THAC0 bonuses properly when using ammunition (not elemental damage, though).

 

What Prine said - they work if you DON'T use ammunition. Gesen even hits the Kangaxx, but again, only if you don't use the arrows. Basically, you do more damage if you use arrows, but only if what your attacking isn't immune to the arrows. Another good example to give would be an adamantite golem. No ammo: Does damage. With ammo: No damage.

 

Hmm, it's even more complicated than I thought.

In other words: I should always use regular ammunition, unless my target is invulnerable to that kind of ammo?

Some numbers would be useful, because I'm really confused now.

Firetooth +4 without ammo
Damage: ??

Firetooth +4 with regular bolts
Damage: ??

Short Bow of Gesen without ammo
Damage: ??

Short Bow of Gesen with regular arrows
Damage: ??


If anyone could fill these in, I'd be mighty pleased; at the moment I haven't got a clue how much damage they can do.

Anyhow, thanks for explaining the Thaco part: Kangaxx won't know what hit 'em! ^^

 

Okay. Without ammunition, Firetooth (+4) hits as a +4 weapon. It inflicts 1D8 base damage, +2 fire damage, and +4 from the weapon's damage bonus. Of those three subgroups, only the weapon's damage bonus will carry over if you begin using ammunition. So with normal bolts, it'll hit as a nonmagical weapon for 1D8 +4. With bolts +2, it'll hit as a +2 weapon for 1D8+2 +4.

Gesen's natural damage I'm not absolutely certain about. Without ammunition it's enchanted as +4, and I think it hits for 2 base damage, +1D8 electrical damage. I don't know if it has a damage bonus attached to it, but neither the base damage nor the electrical damage would carry over if you were using ammunition with it.

Also do not confuse a weapon's THAC0 bonus with its enchantment level. The two have absolutely nothing to do with one another, you could have a weapon that hits as nonenchanted and gives a +50 THAC0 bonus at the same time. The enchantment level is all you have to look at when you're trying to figure out whether a weapon can hit a demilich or whatever.

 

Actually, I think it does carry over with Gesen. I distinctly remember getting three different damage lines when I used it with arrows - the base damage, the electrical damage, and the arrow damage. Interestingly, if you use arrows with Gesen, and the creature you attack is immune to the arrows, the bow does NO damage, even though you'd think the base damage and the electrical damage should still apply. I don't think I've ever actually used Firetooth, as I don't like the rate of fire on crossbows, so I don't know if the damage would carry over or not.

If you take the word "regular" out, yes, you are correct. With an abundance of magical arrows in the game, you should never run out of magical arrows. By magical, I mean anything other than plain old arrows. Usually by midway through Chapter 2, I switch over to Arrows +1, Fire Arrows, or Ice Arrows, and I never look back. By the time you get to ToB, money is so abundant, you'll probably be using +3 arrows regularly, and at worst, you'll be using the quiver of plenty, upgraded to produce +2 arrows.

 

Like I said, these two weapons confuse the hell out of me.
I read a few other threads and some people claim Firetooth hits as a +2 weapon since it's equipped with an endless supply of +2 fire bolts.
Anyway, that should be enough for SoA, so I'll keep using the crossbow.
As soon as I enter Saradush, I'll stock up on +3 arrows and switch to Gesen.
I should have 2+ on short bow by then, at least, I hope so.
How fast does a ranger gain weapon proficiencies: every 4 levels or so ?

The Rate of Fire may be less than a bow, but I'm happy with 3 attacks/round. (plus, Firetooth has got speed factor 1, which is extraordinary fast)
Thanks!

 

Every 3 levels.

 

I've never had problems with just Gesen myself. but then I never went in and paid exact attention to the damage either. It's a common weapon for my party. I've never tried the crossbow.

 

Well, I was wrong about the damage - after testing it, it looks like all of the weapon's damage will apply regardless of whether you're using ammunition or not. So if you aren't using bolts, Firetooth will do 1D8+4+2 damage, or 14 maximum. With regular, nonenchanted bolts, it will do 1D8+1D8+4+2, or 22 maximum.

The only thing that doesn't carry over is the enchantment level (which is still completely and totally separate from damage bonuses, or to hit bonuses or anything; it's a basic property of weapons.) Firetooth is a +4 weapon. It can hit anything in the game if you aren't using bolts. If you are using bolts, you're using their enchantment level, not Firetooth's. Essentially, if something can be hit by +2 enchanted weapons, use +2 bolts. If not, don't use any bolts.