First timer questions

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Having finished Arcanum the next item on my "Troika RPGs to play" list happens to be ToEE. Now I've heard loads of things about the game (good, bad and ugly things), and I've read some reviews, but I want to play it before I make up my mind. Considering I like tactical turn-based combat this may be the game for me. Now to the questions:

1. I know the game is pretty buggy unpatched, and therefore will definitely want to patch it to fix some things. However I've read that the Co8 patch is more like a mod than a patch, and adds item, spells, and even quests to the game. While I'd really like all of the fixes, I'm not sure I want the extra quests in on my first play through, unless they are minor and/or blend well into the game. So, which patch should I install for my first run through?

2. On the subject of bugs, are there any game-stopping bugs I should be aware of before I start?

3. The usual question: party composition. Since you get to pick 5 chars I was thinking of going with something traditional without multiclasses: Paladin, Cleric, Thief, Sorcerer, and another tank (Ranger, Barbarian, or Fighter, not really sure about that. Probably not Monk, he/she will still be quite weak at the cap). Any suggestions?

4. Do you get control of the NPCs like in the IE games or do they fight for themselves? Do you have full control over their inventory? Is it worth it actually taking NPCs along?

Thanks in advance everyone!

 

2. I didn't encounter any game breaking bugs, save for a couple near the end. Only one of them actually caused the game to crash, the other was just disheartening.

3. The first run through that I came near to the end of the game with was 2 Paladins, a Fighter, a Barbarian, and a Rogue. I picked up an NPC wizard, and I didn't really need a cleric.

4. You have full control over NPC's actions, but none over their inventory. They will also take their share of the loot first, which can lead to weak characters taking lots of heavy equipment, and them taking the best stuff as well.

 

3: Just to add on. The game gets easier the more warriors you pick, Your example party looks fine, Forexample a paladin and a barbarian, and multiclass the rogue with fighter and you will have more the firepower you will need.

Personally im a tad to hapy about clerics so i ran with cleric + druid. Be prepared to defend that sorcerer alot, he should be good at running.

4: Most people gets anoyed with the NPC's becose they take lotsof loot from you, and its always fun with a NPC wizard with STR 8 have picked up 4 chainmails, and refuse to let go of them or sell them. so hes to encumbered to move. *sigh*

 

Thanks for the input everyone.

Following Tal's comment I got the Co8 mod, and will end up installing most of it after all (possibly with the exception of Desperate Housewives, but if it's as optional as the readme says I may install and just stay away from it if I don't like it). Since I refuse to install .NET (Vade Retro Satanas and all that) I understand I have to manually patch some of the mods into the game. Is this as easy as it seems (open executable, click "patch", click "exit"), or am I missing something? (silly I know, but I get needlessly paranoid sometimes)

Regarding party, I think I'll take go for Paladin, Barbarian, Cleric, Sorcerer, and Thief. The Thief may or may not get a couple of Fighter classes (probably will). As for the cleric, even if they're not essential, I still like them, and I want to play around with the deities and domains a bit (it's one thing I loved about IWD2)

I've cheated a bit and peaked at a ToEE FAQ to see which NPCs are available in the game. I've found a Wizard who only loots mage scrolls and nothing else. Since I don't plan on having a Wizard PC I thought I might take him along and let him loot to his heart's content. Providing he's clever enough to actually write the scrolls into his spellbook, of course!

Now all I need to do is figure out which races to pick, and avoiding going for an all-human party. I'll update this once I start the game proper.

 

I never bothered with Co8 and instead just installed the Levonia mod (sp?). I'm pretty sure it's available on this site or maybe I got it from the Co8 site. It's only a couple megs and pretty much just fixes bugs and ties up loose ends in some of the quests. Oh, it does add some armor and weapons, but that's a good thing as the stock game lacks many Masterwork weapons and armor.

The NPCs are, for the most part, pretty bad. There are a few you can pick up when you're pretty well into the campaign who are quite good.

It's possible (and not too hard) to get through with 5 PCs but I used a mod that lets me create and use up to a party of 8 PCs. Six is a good number. Druids are great in this game -- turn-based makes using a druid lots of fun and all those spells like Entangle are incredibly useful. My druid's deadly combination of Spike Stones, Spike Growth and Entangle could take out a whole room of monsters while the rest of the party just stood there or shot an arrow or two.

Item crafting is fun and, I suppose, necessary. There is a real limit on the number of magic weapons you'll find and you will end up facing some tough enemies who are only hurt by magic weapons. What to do if you're playing a fighter who is focused on scythes? Use Livonia's mod and craft a good magic one for him.

Crafting requires certain spells (listed in the FAQ) and, therefore, I think wizards are a bit more useful than sorcerers as it's easy enough to buy a scroll and add it to their spellbooks, even if it's a spell you'll never use but need to add a certain property to a crafted weapon. Clerics and druids also have useful spells for weapon crafting and that's another good reason to take one or two of them in a party.

 

@ Sir Fink; Just so you know Livonya's mod was built from Co8-3.0.4 and includes all of that Co8 patch, and was also extensively tested by the Co8 community, It has become an entegral part of the new Co8-4.0.0 patch, which builds from those patches, and adds more bug fixes, the choice to buy your own starting equipment, and more besides. the frontend (requires Microsoft.NET) also includes the humble NPC's patcher (optional), which will stop those NPC's looting, and give full control over thier inventories to the player.

 

I finally started the game yesterday evening. I opted for a Neutral Good party with a Paladin, a Barbarian, a Cleric of Pelor (took me a while to decide on the god and domains), a Rogue and a Sorcerer. Early in the game I asked Elmo and Spugnoir to join me (neither loots random items, which is good. Spugnoir takes mage scrolls, but I don't have a mage anyway so it's not a problem). I have finished most of the Hommlett quests, and am on my way to the moathouse as we speak.

I've only had one fight worth mentionning (the 2 giant spiders in the grove), but I have to say I'm impressed with the combat engine. The range of options available is astounding! I'm having quite a bit of fun with Charge and 5-foot steps. This game is tactical combat heaven as far as I'm concerned. The interface works very well for me too, particularly since you can set hotkeys for often-used items in the radial menu.

More updates later, probably when I'm done with the moathouse.


THE NEXT DAY

This game is FANTASTIC! I have always cared about plot and story in CRPGs more than anything, but with ToEE I simply don't care about this aspect because the combat portion of the game is so good. Tactical combat has never been so much fun!

I've cleared the moathouse and the meadows. I've even managed to kill the giant in the meadows (with a level 3 party!), which I'm sure would have been impossible if it were not for the wide range of options available and proper planning.

The game is very slow-paced, which I suppose is natural considering how complex combat is. It's not a problem as far as I'm concerned, but it does feel odd though when I realise I spend 10 minutes on a single combat (the guards just before getting to Lareth took even more than that)

[ March 12, 2006, 12:15: Message edited by: Ziad ]

 

I've made some progress (spent most of the day playing it, so no surprise here) and got to Temple Dungeon level 2. While on the first level I did not talk to the Earth High Priest, because I thought that siding with one temple could make the others hostile, or prevent me from siding with another temple later on.

I've run into a very irritating problem now. Every time I enter the Water High Priest's room everyone in the Water Temple attacks me. Similarly, I can walk into the Air High Priest's antechamber, but if I take the corridor that goes northwest from there everyone in the Air Temple attacks me. I have everyone in my party wearing the proper robes in each temple, and I can't think of any reason why this would be happening. The only combat I've had on this level before that was against a minotaur that attacked me near the entrance to the level. Anyone has an idea what this is all about? I really don't wan to have to fight everything in the temple, not at this stage at least.

 

I never really understood what made some temple folks attack and others be friendly and willing to talk. Robes? Perhaps, though I've found sometimes simply having a single one in inventory (not even worn) was enough to win them over. That said, there might be some NPCs who will go hostile if everyone isn't wearing a robe (they certainly give you enough robes to give you this impression).

I agree about the tactical combat comment. Yes, there are plenty of great CRPGs with big plots, thick dialog, etc. but sometimes just good old-fashioned turn-based tactical combat is enough to make a game loads of fun.

TOEE takes me back to my days of playing pen-and-paper as a kid. Being kids (I suppose) we were way more into the tactical combat aspect of D&D than role-playing. Loved moving those little lead figures around on the dining room table, rolling those dice, and carefully planning where to cast a fireball, etc.

 

There is a recently discovered bug with the robes, they only seem to work when held in your inventory - the problem will be addressed soon (I think), in a new Co8 patch (ETA unknown at this time).

 

That explains why everyone is attacking me then
As long as there is a way to actually get things to work, I don't mind how it's done. I'll give it a shot by just keeping all the robes in my inventory and post here if things work or not.

Two slightly unrelated questions:
1. Do the Earth Temple Rings have any use at all?
2. Is it actually possible to work for all 4 temples and do all of their quests? Has anyone actually managed to do it? I would really like to be able to turn them all against each other and mess them all up entirely, and since most quests (the ones I've come across until now anyway) involve hurting another temple more than helping the temple you're working for, I find the idea quite attractive (and my Chaotic Good sorcerer fully agrees)

 

1) apart from the GP you can get from selling them, I don't think they have any use in the game.

2) you can certainly start all of the elemental temple quests (quest #1 for each), but you cannot complete them all, EG both the fire and water temple want to recruit Oolgrist for their temple, the water and air temples require you to assassinate the leader of another temple (or eachothers temple - not sure about that).

 

I've just found out that I cannot do any quests for any of the temples - as soon as I complete the first quest my Paladin falls. Grr.

I hate goody-two-shoes.


EDIT

Due to not being able to do much in the way of temple quests (and not really being in the mood for slaughtering everyone), I ended up finishing the game quite quickly. I did almost nothing on level 2 of the Temple (for obvious reasons), and after finding the skull/orb things quickly moved to a finale. I never even found a way to get to the Great Temple.

I will definitely come back to the game at a future date. Combat is fantastic, and knowing I've missed so many things really makes me want to replay it again. Although I am definitely not taking a Paladin with me on my second time through!

[ March 15, 2006, 21:57: Message edited by: Ziad ]