Freedom of expression where are you?

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Here is the link . By making it, French violated an important freedom. Here is the most important expression in that new:

I don't say in Turkey, you are free to express your ideas about it. If you say the so-called Armenian Genocide is true, there will be a social punishment. People will get angry with you and they will see you as a traitor, maybe you will be killed by a madmen. But in France, there is a law against it. France is violating an important freedom. And here is another example of the behaviour of France: Bernard Lewis
And read this .

Genocide is what America did to Indians and what Hitler did to Jews. In war, people die; especially if you are killing Turkish families in their lands when they are undefended (because most males are in war). It is forbidden in France but I say it: There is no Armenian genocide, there is only dead Armenians because of attacking women and children. And most objective historians (I don't count Armenian or Turkish ones) accepts Armenian genocide never happened (for example Bernard Lewis and Gilles Veinstein). Now what do you think about the violation of an important freedom in France?

 

Most historians actually agree that the genocide did happen but I suppose all historians who disagree with your point of view are biased?

There are several cases of denial of genocide around. Svytoslav being the last one represent some if it on these boards. Personally I think that most of that denial is only a way of national self preservance and sad attempt to maintain the picture of righteousnes. And there are really no signs in this case which makes denying the Armenian genocide any different from denying genocide in Srebrenica, both vastly disagreeing with what most historians agree in and both being dominant only in the countries guilty of genocide.

However, the law France is implementing is just stupid. I'm not sure if any countries have laws against denying the holocaust (I would not be surprised if they had) but I think that such laws are against the freedom of expression. I'm really not sure what the point with this law is, but it will certainly piss off Turkey and make its EU membership (which looks quite buried at the moment anyway) a lot more difficult. I do think that it is important to forbid the use of such views as propaganda against various ethnic groups (in this case Armenians), to prevent unnecessary violence.

 

Freedom of expression doesn't grant you the right to spout lies. One could argue that it wasn't genocide but a killing but the fact at the end of the day is one hell of alot of Armenians were killed in a short period of time.

 

Oh yes, naughty naughty France! Let's not forget what happened to Orhan Pamuk and other Turkish citizens who acknowledge the Armenian Genocide.

From wiki:

As I recall, Pamuk was almost lynched by an angry mob as he left the courtroom (which he only escaped because of technical reasons). Lynching is what people with an objective viewpoint on the Armenian Genocide actually do... right?

Holy s***!! This is coming from a Turkish politician? A country that has again been denied access to Europe because they themselves lack 'Freedom of expression' and 'Freedom of religion'. If the Turkish government won't recall this guy, I can think of one word for their government: Hypocrite!

Yes, the whole ethnic cleansing started when Armenian gangs started reclaiming 'their land' from the Ottoman oppressors who only treated them as 3rd class citizens anyway. Simply put, the random slaughter of Turkish women and children. This is the same thing William Wallace did to the english and he went into romanticized history as a hero! So... that must be a good thing then! *har har*

To this Turkey responded with a complete housecleaning, amongst which

• Armenian intellectuals where arrested and executed on masse. Why them? They were not murdering Turks! Oh right, they were Armenian, duh.
• Exterminating not only Armenians but 100.000+ Assyrians, Kurds, and Greeks as well, because uh I don't know?
  Well I do know, it was an ethnic cleansing of anything non-Turkish, how else can you explain the reason why non-Armenians were deported^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H "relocated", they weren't forming gangs and murdering Turks!

This whole part is only an attack on your statement that 'objective' historians claim the genocide never happened. As I recall, Lewis only denied this because of semantic differences. Hundreds of thousands did get discriminately slaughtered, and in my dictionary that is simply genocide.

But getting back to the point, yes, France is making a mistake here by outlawing the denial. This same mistake was made when France, Germany and Austria outlawed the denial of the holocaust.

[ October 14, 2006, 16:08: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

Yes but I alredy said it:

But a government shouldn't do it.

Yes, they are hypocrites and there isn't a complete freedom of expression in Turkey, but that doesn't make his words wrong. What he says is true.

Firstly, it IS'NT AND WON'T BE their land. And second, Ottoman Empire couldn't treat them bad, because the not-Ottomans in the Ottoman lands were being protected by other countries, as a result of the capitulations and other agreements.

Sh!t not funny

Because they were provocating Armenians. They are also responsible.

Most of them were helping the occupants.

Millions of Nazis died in the WW2, like Armenians died in WW1. It is no more genocide than the murdered Nazis.

 

Uhm when this law was passed, Danish historiens was qouted for saying, thats this Genocide is one of the most well documented in recent historie... so im going to believe there was in fact a mass murder of Armeniens, even though its Tabu to say so in Turkey.

Well i also had to months about the fall of the osmanien kingdom in College, so i did see a fair few documentations for it.
I guess denieng it, is just pushing Turkey further away from entering the EU.

Oh forgot to acctually address your last question: I think France is doing a great job preserving the truth by making it illigel to lie about that fact.

 

I will agree at the point when they make it illegal to deny the Chechenyan genocide, oh but that's Russia it's a completeley different thing right? Economical intrests and such. Until then this is just hypocritical and populistic policies from the adminstration who are desperate to please a population who do not want Turkey as a member in the EU.

 

Agreed. but its still a decent law, even though its made more to please the public then to actually preserve the truth.

 

If Armenian genocide is true, then there is also a Turkish genocide. Because they did AT LEAST the same things we did. And instead of killing them to end the troubles, they are exiled. If they were all murdered to end the troubles, that would be a genocide.

Yes, because most of the European countries did genocides in the history, I think if some country wants to enter EU, she should do genocide. Without committing a genocide, Turkey can't enter EU.

If France thinks it is true, they shouldn't make talking about it illegal. Talking reveals the truths, isn't it. Or do they fear from the truths?

 

Well, i wasn't expecting to discuss this here on BoM. But i think as someone living in Turkey i have to say something.

Yes what French did was wrong. But what happened to Orhan Pamuk and some other writers here was also wrong. An Armenian writer named Hrant Dink said Armenian Genocide happened and he was found guilty according to Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code. (BTW Morgoth it isn't 305 i think it's 301 but I'm not sure. It's being discussed on TV everyday here). And i read what Dink wrote yesterday. He says those who voted at French parliament gave his case as example and said "Turks should look at themselves first". I don't like that "they should look at themselves" approach. They are right that there is an anti-democratic law here but that shouldn't be a reason for France to do another wrong thing. Turkey is still trying to become fully democratic and we have a long way. Turkey's history is full of coups (i mean coup d'état). It isn't surprising that Turkey has such anti-democratic laws but it is surprising to see such an act from France because it was a model of democracy for us.

I don't care if genocide happened or not. But i want people to be able to say that it happened in Turkey. Also i want people to be able to say it didn't happen in France (or Armenia). As Dink and Pamuk says France shouldn't have done this.

I also don't think that we could easily decide if it is a genocide or not here on BoM. I think history should be left to historians as our chief negotiator said. I have heard lots of stories from both sides and it is a very complex matter. But i want to write some of my thoughts:

-At the time of that event nationalism was on the rise (and ironically nationalism has risen after French revolution ) and Greeks, Bulgarians and others probably did similar things to Turks when Ottoman Empire was being divided and they were forming nation-states because the purpose of nation-state is to create a state with only one nation generally by destroying or assimilating others.

-Also Turkish Republic was founded as a nation-state after Ottomans collapsed but this is a new country so today's Turkey isn't responsible for these events.(but is responsible to what happened to Kurdish people after 1923) If Turkey is responsible for what happened at Ottoman Empire we can also sue Mongols for making genocide to Ottomans when they invaded and killed everyone in their eastern lands.

-

Morgoth, your approach is another example of "they should look at themselves". I agree with you but that doesn't make French right.

-There is an idea of making a similar mistake and making it a crime to deny French genocide against Algerians. I just hope that our parliament stops using that "they should look at themselves" approach.

-What some Turks say about the things that French did in Africa is another example of "they should look at themselves" sh!t. That doesn't clean that black page in Ottoman history. But OTOH they are right in a way because most western countries have prejudice against Turks while their history has similar black pages too. Before criticizing Turks sometimes ...erm... maybe ...erm... "they should look at themselves"!

 

There's always been a limit to freedom of expression. Many of you guys here do not realize that. Or at least you write like you don't.
Anyway, apart from being a political manouver, which I think it partially is, I don't see it as a bad thing. For instance, here in Argentina, there was a law until recently that stated something like "final obedience and full stop" (as in "period, no more discussion") on the subject of our last dictatorship. Because of that law we couldn't send to court to our dictatorships. Story has a happy end though, cause we managed to declare it void and send them to court (first country in the world to do that, yay! me feels proud). Like in those AA groups, the first step is to admit it happened. Remember that a war also falls into the category of genocide, since it's a mass elimination of people for political, religious, ethnical or whatever reasons.
Now if they use this as a political tool to prevent Turkey from joining them, well, yeah, they're cheap, lame and ethnocentric greedy losers.

 

AFAIK, it all started when in France a communist MP introduced a law to make it a crime to deny the Holocaust happened, and it got accepted. The problem was, soon other groups claimed that they had also gone through a genocide of similar proportions, and it became a problem.

However, the bill in France has, I think, around 0.05% chance of making it to a law. Neither chamber of parliament looks inclined to pass it, and imo the president would probably veto it anyway to avoid the diplomatic mess. So if in Turkey one could get jailed for saying there was an Armenian genocide, I think Ankara should work on that instead of denying that a genocide took place. That is something historians should debate on - and being brought to court because of a position you express is not good for debate.

The problem with Turkey and the EU will probably lie elsewhere: Cyprus. Argohir, correct me if I'm wrong, but Turkey recognizes only the northern government as the, right? Now, the Republic of Cyprus (the Greek part) is a EU member. You can't possibly enter a diplomatic entity if you don't recognize the diplomatic status of its members or, at least, have a different idea of what its territory is than anyone else.

 

@Shaman: Yes, it seems like a major reason. I think the reason of it is the non-recognization of the north part by Europans. And I can't understand why Turkey tries so hard to enter the EU; but, it is another topic.

 

I know, but it wasn't meant to be funny. It was meant to be a side-swing at how history documented Wallace's struggle which is very similar to the Armenian struggle. His struggle was romanticized by Hollywood because he fought for the 'freedom' of Scotland.
However, Armenia was there before the Turks settled in Anatolia, having an empire that spanned from the Caspian sea to the Mediterranian via the Black sea. The Ottomans were the occupiers, not the other way around.

 

I don't think so. It is completely a political manouver. Socialists are trying to win the votes of their Armenian citizens. There are lots of Armenians in France.

Another reason may be after WW1 when France invaded southeastern part of Ottoman Empire some Armenians wearing French uniforms started killing people etc. Then Turks fought back and took those lands back and as French left lots of Armenians also escaped there with ships and went to France. Actually it seems to me that France is paying for what they did. They used Armenians and now paying the price.

You're a lucky one. We're still living with our dictators. (Actually only the last one is alive) I saw him on the TV a few months ago. Some stupid university students were applauding him.

 

So you want something like this or that . So... hey Europeans, go away from America and Australia. And resettle Rome and give Rome half the Europe. And Germans go somewhere else. Turks, return to middle Asia. We are returning to ancient times, be quick!

Seems a little chaotic...Turks are in Anaolia for a millennium so that is what you are teliing us to do.

 

That's meant to be a bad joke, right?

 

Laws such as this are a terrible idea - the way to get rid of an idea is to have a better one, not to make it illegal. Making laws against the beliefs of people is absurd - it's not as though you can just change you're beliefs because hey - now they're illegal. If anything they're going to feel that their beliefs have been confirmed and that there's conspiracy against them...

 

Killing soldiers in a war is not considered Genoside. Killing 100.000 civilians,m during peacetime and war is. So what the Germans did to jews was genocide, jut like what Osmans did to armenians was, now im not saying that turkey in any way should be held responceble for that, but they should be held responseble for what they did to the khurds and they should stop denieng one of recent histories most well documented Genocides.

Turkey face a huge problem, they have internal struggles politicaly and with ethnic groups. and they are trying to enter the EU. Several major problems has occured with this, Turkeys lack of freedom of speech, their view on women (while i do know Turkey is very liberal compared to other muslim lands), the fact that they are in war with Greece (no actual fighting is ongoing, but as far as i know no peace threaty has been signed) and so on. I know this law from france is mainly ment as an insult, but by denieng the Armenien genocide having occured Turkey is just digging its own grave in the mather of Enterin EU.