From an Afghan point of view...

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Greetings everyone!

I just recieved this e-mail from a friend. Apparently, its being passed around to at least help clarify pespectives on the issue. To bad I wasn't able to secure a copy of Hakeem Olajuwon's (NBA Center of the Houston Rockets, just got traded to the Toronto Raptors I think)statement about being Muslim and American, I just caught excerpts of it on ESPN. Maybe someone can provide a link?

I decided to post this as a separate topic from the other threads so that it won't get lost in the pages and that hopefully, more folks get to read it.

Whatever actions you think are appropriate or not, I hope you consider the message of the letter.

I haven't verified this with any San Francisco publication. I'm going on the trust that I have for the person who sent this to me. So please, may someone verify this before some hothead flames me for passing propaganda around?
My intention was to provide a different perspective. You dont have to believe it if you don't want to.

********

This commentary is from Tamim, a writer and columnist in San Francisco, who comes from Afghanistan:

I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age." Ronn Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this
would mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What else can we do?"

Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." And I thought about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never lost track of
what's going on there.

So I want to tell anyone who will listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

I speak as one who hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. There is no doubt in my mind that these people were responsible for the atrocity
in New York. I agree that something must be done about those monsters.

But the Taliban and Bin Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the government of Afghanistan.

The Taliban are a cult of ignorant psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political criminal with a plan.

When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you think Bin Laden, think Hitler. And when you think "the people of Afghanistan," think "the
Jews in the concentration camps."

It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.

Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated,
suffering. A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000 disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food.

There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the
farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

We come now to the question of bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone Age. Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it already.

Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level their houses? Done. Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that. New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs.

Would they at least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away and hide. Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul and dropping bombs wouldn't really be a strike against the criminals who did this horrific thing.

Actually it would only be making common cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been raping all this time. So what else is there?

What can be done, then? Let me now speak with true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand.

What's actually on the table is Americans dying. And not just because some Americans would die fighting their way through Afghanistan to Bin
Laden's hideout.

It's much bigger than that folks. Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where I'm going.

We're flirting with a world war between Islam and the West. And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's all right there.

He really believes Islam would beat the west.It might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers.

If the west wreaks a holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point
of view. He's probably wrong, in the end the West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the belly for that?

Bin Laden does.

Anyone else?


Tamim Ansary
****** (end of letter)******



[This message has been edited by eveningdrive (edited September 19, 2001).]

 

That's some really good points, but this is a loose loose situation. The western civilizations need to set their foot down and say that this will not stand, but they can't just kill anyone that does not share their point of view. That would make us the bad guys....

There really isn't any solution to this, everyone just have to respect each other's point of view and back down or else we have world war 3.

 

Don't know about verification of the letter, but this must have been quoted directly in the UK press yesterday. Unfortunately I decided to read all articles in the Independent, The Times and Evening Standard yesterday on this issue (Spent a lot of time on the train), so I can't remember if it refered to any source not.

Still, I have to agree with most of the points made. It is indeed a lose, lose situation.

Estimate suggests still some 10 million landmines in Afghanistan. Approx 20-25 people per day are killed there by these landmines by all accounts, never mind the injuries.

Even if the Pakistanis allow Western forces to use their soil for an invasion without a hitch, something which seems very unlikely even if the Pakistani Government co-operates, given the fatwa issued by the religious leaders there, it would be a lengthy process indeed to try to overthrow the Taliban regime and hunt down bin Laden and very expensive in terms of lives lost.

Can it be done without throwing the whole region into war? Well, the Russians invaded without such repercussions, but I suppose the world situation was somewhat different then, without perhaps some of the de-stabilising elements that now exists in the area.

Whatever is done, the campaign will need clear objectives and support for those objectives must be obtained via the UN and from Arab states in the area, otherwise I cannot see how any such action can be undertaken without causing far more harm than good, and perhaps de-stabilise the whole region.



[This message has been edited by Viking (edited September 19, 2001).]

 

The region seems pretty unstable now. You have an extremist theocratic minority running their government that aids, harbors, and most likely finances violent political factions, and scorns their own people. Pretty much the same thing in Iraq, which isn't too far away. We should go in, temporarily occupy these rogue states, round up the leaders, and hold free elections, and see what the People want. Because, I too, believe that the general population would not support these types of governments if given the opportunity to choose.

Bottom line: the region is a safe haven for brutal bullying cowards. We should take care of those that did this specifically - next, we should go after other groups with similar terroristic tendencies, the people or governments that finance their operations.

I am not so naive to think that these unscrupulous folks are not in the US, they are. We should find out who they are as well, freeze their assets, and put them on trial for crimes against humanity.

neeye:

 

Just one short thing about what you said about occuping for a short period of time Sir Belisarius.

The reason pretty much all muslims give for beeing angry with america, is that after the gulf war they didn't fully leave and this is seen as a desecration of the holy land. Ofcourse this does also include the fact that they are backing Israel.

So I don't think that occuping more land will help all that much.

I think that they should do their business now, get their revenge and pull out of everything, including Israel. Then just leave them to their self, because beeing there sure doesn't help in the long run.

 

!~ think everyone should just back down now and think for a bit. The Americans are still angry for the little wtc episode. The Afgans are angry because everyone seems to want to kill them for absolutely no reason at all and the Taliban seem to want to rule the world.
Welcome to World War Three everyone.

 

It all narrows down to whether the Terrorist acts would continue if the 3rd world was left alone or what Turambar?

After reading of how the Taliban treats its fellow humans I feel it is repulsive to just let them alone. If this is solely US-revenge Turambar can you explain to me why Osami Bin Laden sponsered an action that should poison the European Parlament? You probably doesn't trust me and will refuse to answer. I can't find the link. If you insist I'll call the National TV in my country and ask where they got it from, Dansih Televison. I could phone germany, they were the one solving the case, but my german is very poor.

Perhaps it has some to do with revenge. But I think it is an attack on western values. Leaving the strong extreme organisations alone in the third world would not be smart. The'll try and evolve. One day the world will be peacefull. This decade is not the one. This decade is the one were terrorists are showing their muscles.

[This message has been edited by Nobleman (edited September 20, 2001).]

 

Actually Turambar (nice name by the way ), I think just the opposite:

We should become more involved in the region...The nations we have the worst relations with have despots in power that only represent a minority of the population. Our foreign policy in the Mid East has been pretty piss poor.

We've backed some dogs, just because they were fighting against the Soviets in the pre-collapse days, and it's done nothing but bite us in the ass. I think we should do more for the PEOPLE of these oppressive regimes and show them the best of America, not just how cool our planes are and how much damage we can do.

We have also supported Arafat's position for a Palestinian state, as well as supporting Israel. I think there's plenty of room for both.

 

I have to disagree with you Sir Bel. I think part of the larger problem is too many fingers in the Holy Pie. It is believed Israel should not be divided, yet Jews, Muslims and Christians all seem to have some sort of claim over who should be where and who owns what.
We try to impose Western values and forms of government and diplomacy on people who don't want it. Americans stand in the way of what Islamic people want the most - the exhile of non-Muslims from Israel and Palestine, and this pretty much makes them enemy number one.
The words 'Holy War' puts fear into my heart because people who believe they are divinely guided can do some pretty devastating things, regardless of fire-power or technology. I really think the the US should make their strike, perhaps flush out Bin Laden and his cronies from Afganistan, and then leave well enough alone. Bush's comments about good triumphing over evil are all fine and dandy, but what are we prepared to pay for this victory? I don't want disasters such as the the WTC to become a common occurance. As far as I'm concerned, we have enough evil and corruption right here, we don't need to be inviting more to our front doors.

 

this is a sad situation indeed.
i am only 14 so dont call me stupid for this idea.


i think they need to send a assassin to afganastand and assasinate bin laden then hopefully some of the talaban will leave, the ones that remain, they should send ground troops and take them out

 

From my limited knowledge of the subject (an Afghan roomate in college and his friends, all refugees) I would have to say this backs up what I have already heard.

Can I just make the point that a lot of contributors have mentioned something along the lines of "not just Afghans but Americans will die", but actually it won't just be American ground troops going in. American allies all over the world are getting ready for war. If an attack on Afghanistan is the way the USA decides to go, we are all going to lose our brothers, husbands, sons. This is not just about Afghanistan and the USA.

 

Dark Xan, just because your 14 doesn't mean you have nothing significant to say. This is a place where you are free to voice your views and listen to others with respect.

Personally, I'm inclined to agree with you. I've been toying with the idea of a covert op myself. I figure it MIGHT be the least bloody military action available so far. Remember, intelligence gathering is also a major action the US and its allies are undertaking right now. It sounds more surgical to me than what's been posted so far, from nukes to carpet bombing to a ground war/invasion type.

The assassination thing? I might have to disagree with that though. If NATO and her allies do implement a covert op mission, I think its leaders would prefer to retrieve Osama Bin Laden and his cronies to stand trial. Admittedly, the risk is great for the troop sent in, whether it be the SEALS, the Scout Rangers, the Special Forces, the Royal Marines, etc.

Whatever happens, NATO should avoid sinking to the level of the terrorists. It shouldn't commit acts which the alliance itself condemns.

[This message has been edited by eveningdrive (edited September 20, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by eveningdrive (edited September 20, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by eveningdrive (edited September 20, 2001).]

 

way to go eveningdrive

[This message has been edited by kevlar0101 (edited September 20, 2001).]

 

I'd have to say kudos to that last post, eveningdrive

In this conflict, the only thing that would separate the good guys from the bad guys would be the means they use to achieve their ends.

One of the biggest losses the world has had to go through in the past few days is that decent people are actively contemplating murder and mayhem to commit revenge. As the saying goes, revenge is a dish best served cold.

Everyone has a stake in this conflict. No one will be spared. It's just like enacting the death penalty to deter crime. You don't exactly deter crime by violently ending criminals' lives, you just make an institution out of violence and revenge to ensure the rule of law. But then, that's another story.

 

well put

yeah capturing would be a better idea and if we bomb afganastand we would be just as bad as the terrorists

 

Capture Bin Laden? I'm not sure if that will be an easy task. Even when they do find him (and they probably will) he will proabably be dead anyway. There is no way he will let himself be taken and interrogated by the West. Killing himself would probably be his greatest step to martyrdom (in his followers eyes anyway).

 

I think an effort should be made to publicize all the Muslims killed in the World Trade Center bombings.

That way the crazies will understand that they were killing their brothers as well as "evil" Americans.

Plus, it'd help cut down on the anti-Arab sentiments in the U.S. People have rammed the Saudi embassy (duh! They're on our side!), attacked people on the streets, thrown a brick through a local Islamic bookstore... sheesh, people. These are AMERICANS. They live in the same country because it's free. What the heck?

 

For someone who lives in DC and passes the Pentagon everyday, I'm glad to see you've mellowed down Shralp. I've been happening upon your posts and I've seen them change from raw anger to a more reasoning tone. I for one am glad you weren't anywhere near the Pentagon (or were you?) when that plane crashed.

I won't pretend to know what you feel or think. I just want to laud you for being sensitive to the plight of those innocents in Afghanistan and to your Muslim countrymen, inspite of this tragedy hitting close to home, geographically and emotionally.

Strength to you friend!
Here's to you

 

Oh, there's still plenty of raw anger. Especially when I see people (including Arabs in NEW JERSEY) celebrating the attacks.

But thanks.