Galileo

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I'm not quite sure I understand this. Is the EU somehow going to figure out how to charge people to use the system?

Galileo vs. GPS

 

We should always welcome new developments in my opinion. The future of this Galileo is not the brightest, but I am sure they have reason why they decided to do the project. US' electronics and its whole technology is the best in the world because of the immense money they are able to invest in it. This does not mean that Europeans cannot create a device or system which is as good as the US one and can mean rivalry to it. Let's not forget that, for example, the American atom bomb was created by exclusively european immigrant scientists.

The problem with Galileo, as the text at the given link says, could be the inconsistency with GPS system and, IMO, the risk of the project. In Europe, there is no such great and firm financial background for such developments. This sensitivity's consequence might be that the entire program may stop due to the least financial or political change. Anyway, I am not very sceptic. I think it will succeed. I hope.

 

I don't see why they want to invest in Galileo. I mean, isn't the GPS available to everyone? Aren't hand-held GPS available at a relatively affordable price? Why develop something that already exists? Unless of course they can do it better/faster/cheaper, but I did not get that impression from the article.

 

I think the EU wants to more independent of the US, we can't have you starting a monopoly on space, before the real race ever began.

From the articles I've read about Galileo, it seems that it is going to be more robust(quality won't drop during a war) and more accurate, 10 to 20 times more accurate than the GPS.

 

And the system is totally owned and controlled by Europeans. They have its exact scientific(technical) specifications, descriptions etc., and those things of US GPS are probably licensed and secret. So Europeans can make their system better, do what they want with it. Without anything which would bind them to US. Maybe the whole thing won't worth it, but at least it's a try. I support it. And probably not only the politicians decided to finish this project. Scientists and experts (should) analyze such things, and economists. Those who are familiar with it and all its probable effects in any (political, economical, military etc.) area.

 

From everything I read, GPS is accurate to within 1 meter. For all practical purposes, does it matter if you know your position to within 1 meter or 10 cm? Especially if you're moving?

 

Apples and Oranges ? Well, I don't know much about the technical aspects of it and I don't care too much for that either. But for one, if the Americans can have such welfare programs, why can't we ?

And further, GPS and Galileo are two completly different things. GPS is a miltary project which also allows civil uses, at the condition, that anytime a military need says closed until further notice and it isn't especially aimed and therefore not ideally suited for civil applications. That's, as I understand it, is their main issue with Galileo, they want some frequencies reserved for US-military uses and the accept of the EU to allow the US to shut down Galileo in "crisis situations".

GPS on the other hand is completly civil project, precisely aimed at the demands of the companies and transport authorities. As it is needed for transport security for cars and trains.

And then, why should the USA have the monopoly on satelitenavigationsystem and following that, a playground only for American companies, I mean it's a national security thing.

Galileo is also advertised with trustworthiness. Having some sensible data and don't want to necessarily share it with some unkown people in the Pentagon and maybe a US-company your competing with ? You never know where that information ends up.

 

I think Iago means "sensitive" from an intelligence point of view. In other words, the Galileo system uses classified technology.

 

Every such development is classified. And they don't have to share it with US, America already knows what it wants to know or will learn sooner or later. The industrial and scientific intelligence activity works well, the CIA is everywhere where needed.
The reason of why they don't give out much info is mainly the following: 1. the program is not finished yet, 2. some parts are certainly secret towards the public.

 

Hooooooooo-boy.

GPS is "theoretically" capable of under 1mm accuracy (I'm not kidding). I forget the vector precision, but it's something like .001kph/degree. In reality, it is capable of 1cm accuracy, in *all* conditions. Down to a fingernail.

Yes there's encryption to those levels. Use to be, it was open to 100m, and encrypted below. I think it was 1997 they dropped that down to the 1m mark, which allowed civilian aircraft to use it for instrument approach. Which was right kind of them. The centimeter level is still encrypted.

If the Euros want their own system, I've no problem with it. Launch it. I think it's a waste of resources and time, but I mean, I get paid the same either way. Having a Euro system and an Amerikan system doesn't affect my paygrade in any appreciable manner, so go for it.

I'd expect it to be a better system than the Amerikan version, but with area limitations. Cellphone protocols are basically the same way; America just doesn't have a use for GSM like we do CDMA, simply because we have different priorities.

 

Why are we Euros building cars... I mean Japan already produces those.

Aren't modern economics all about competition anyway?

 

True the Japanese build cars, but I think the difference is that they sell them. I may be wrong, but I always thought that GPS was free. You just had to buy hardware that could read the signal. Is the EU somehow going to charge a monthly fee for something that is free using a different set of satellites? That is the part I don't understand.

 

Well, I think Baronius has covered some of my points. There are two systems now of that kind, GPS and the Russian one. The Russian one is out of order and leaves a monopoly for the Americans. And therefore the need to cooperate with the Americans. And that maybe not always the best path to chose, in a free market economy. You go your own paths and don't want to be forced to cooperate with a cartel. It's a free market system the Europeans got, not a corporate system like in the middle ages. And cooperations further may mean to share information you don't want to necessarily share, on state level and on economical level, as companies will do the work.

And again GPS and Galileo are to completly different things. Not form a technological standpoint, but from a purpose standpoint. GPS is a military system, which mainly serves military purposes. Galileo is a civil system, that is supposed to serve mainly civil (economical) purposes. These are two completly different things.

GPS is not reliable and not able to serve economical purposes. Reliabilty in this case in the legal sense. The deal of GPS is, you can use it as long we don't need it. Maybe tomorrow, we need it and we have to stop sharing it with you. In the case of us (the US) doing that, you don't have no legal remedy. We don't pay for any economical consequences for us stopping to share GPS with you. Galileo was born in 1999, as this possibility became reality and GPS services where shut down for the users. Whith that situation, economical use of a satelitenavigationsystem isn't possible. For example, there's a plan to put up an intelligent car-security system, based on satelite information to reduce car-accidents (and their cost of lives and money). Problem, you can't base that on GPS as the system you base that on should still be there tomorrow as this obviously needs huge long-term investments. Who would do that, if the provider the whole thing is based on, doesn't guarantee aviability ? That's not the place for dot.com like risk capital and surely not the shaky foundation you'd base a transport-security system on. And if service for some reason isn't provided, Galileo is for this shortcoming, in contrast to GPS, financally liable. GPS does not offer that. There's a gap in the market and Galileo is aimed at closing it.

Interestingly, there actually two things possible.

A. Galileo could also be used for military purposes, one of the issues, as it could grant Europe military autonomy from NATO in maybe 30 years. Or not. Could. Maybe. Who knows, who cares.

Just to note again, NATO is a defense pact of the West-Europeans and the North-Americans, which was aimed to ram down the Warsaw-pact forces with North-American fighter planes and European infantry, particularly huns, Russians love having huns invading them, they just love it. Obviously, the world changed in the meantime, and the purpose of NATO doesn't seem too clear anymore and North-Americans and Europeans don't have that sense of mutual need anymore. Which may explain that in the last few years things happened which wouldn' happened in the seventies or eighties or could have had at that time serious consequences of a different kind.

B. Much more likely is, that the Americans will reform and remodel GPS in the shape of Galileo. As for now, there was a monopoly which, as monopolies do, stalled scientific and economical innovation. Obviously, a reformed GPS could serve the same purpose as Galileo is supposed to. The point is, that the American civil authorities propably ask the US military, and why exactly don't we do the same ? Concurrence revives business.

 

Well, there will be plenty of uses for a satellitenavigationsystem. There will be plenty of information be passed. As the Americans have a lax-concept of date-protection, as I can tell, as we have big fuss with the Americans right now about information they want from us on plane-passenger lists. It's forbidden to have those information in that way for the state, yet the Americans want it from us. Big fuss. The potential of abuse of Galileo, it's applications and data through the EU and companies is huge and surely will be a huge matter to be cleared out internally. Then having to have cooperations with the Americans, which have a different view about many rights and liberties, which are self-evident if you're from an other cultural background, friction is programmed. Further, companies will have to work with the American monopoly in a huge growth sector. Don't want to lose or share your own advantage through having to accept the us terms of usage. Or even having them stealing, which happened before.

Well, yes, as I said, Galileo most likely will change the GPS to become itself another Galileo. The Galileo idea for one was born because the Americans didn't want to do open up for civil uses. And the other part is, Galileo is budgeted to be a huge money-maker and will bring in billions, the birth of a new economic branch (or maybe not, budgets and prospects are always only budges and prospects). GPS has the same rosy (civil) future. It's about a new huge cake and having a share of it.

But still, GPS doesn't offer legal protection for it's service, legal reliability. Tomorrow, service may be ended if the US military says so.

By the way, I'm actually getting curious about the exact agreement that was made. The EU says, that the have not agreed to letting the US military have a say in Galileo, as they wanted to first. Well, that's what all the fuss was about in the first place, US-military issues with the Galileo frequences and encryption system. Can't be jammed like GPS anytime by them. Hm, link I used to find about 1999 said, the EU strongly denies having made further concessions to the US, that they may shut down Galileo service anytime they want. Makes wonder, why they need to deny that strongly.

Anyway, they seem to have to agreed on make GPS and Galileo completly competible. As seemingly, some in the US favour Galileo.

http://www.br-online.de/wissen-bildung/thema/galileo/

US authorities can encrypt, conceal or shut off the GPS signal anytime without prior warning. As happened in the Kosovo-crisis. Only US troops will then have access to GPS signal-data.

And if I remember correctly, whilst the Iraq-war, the satellites where moved to focus on Iraq, which did reduce the GPS-signal quality in many other regions.

 

Well, ah, no. But interesting.

I found this link about from the US goverment.http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2002/8673.htm

That doesn't fit well with this. NZZ

Or this

Austria didn't get any GPS signal at the time of the Kosovo wars. That's why the Austrian goverment decidede to pass on the US-GPS system for their maud.

 

Lol, haven't we been here on others issues before ? I think we've reached a gordic knot.

Yeah, but according to this other source, the error margin of GPS for planenavigation in certain parts of the world really is 50 m. And that happens to be over Europe. GPS world

If I remember correctly 65' N is south from the northern polarcircle, so over Scandinavia which if I remember correctly, is one of the densesd populatated areas that far north. And also a important aviatic route.

He, he, under any other circumstance, I'd gleefully rejoice in having been made aware of a NZZ mistake. But not right now. I think that the GPS is singal error-margin is really 50 m where it counts for Europeans and there's a lot of other sources, EU, govermental sites and NTV for example (which is linked to CNN) stating that the GPS signal was shut down or changed during the recent wars. (Which all happen in our backyards, anyway). I don't belief it's a myth. Or if it's a myth, it's a myth going into high places. Then it goes down to a simple question of believe. Them far away (with an unbelievable reputation of trustworthiness) or them a tad bit closer.

Found something mildly about in on CNN too.

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/12/13/gps.funding.roadblock.idg/index.html

And from CNN, that they jammed during the Afghanistan operation.

http://edition.cnn.com/2001/TECH/ptech/10/29/ret.gps.jamming.idg/index.html

I am not saying that the US military has no right to jam it. It's theirs afterall. But if you can pay for your own security on that sensitive high-tech issue, why shouldn't you ?

I'm sorry about that. But this topic is penetrating the final Google frontier. There about trillion references to GPS in English and really hard to sieve them.