Gaming impressions for a 'conversational' rogue-fighter

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I decided to start a new game after convincing myself that my aasimar pally was good, but decidedly not cool enough. Another reason was that I wanted to make the best of the conversation options in the game. So my new char is a conversational rogue, being good at bluffing, diplomacy and intimidation. I know this is inefficient as I would get along perfectly well with one of these skills.

Opening locks and disarming traps will remain Neesha's domain. Tanking will be delegated to someone else as well. My char will do the talking, scouting, and in fights roam around and make sneak attacks.

Char is a cg half-elf with 'flirt' background feat to maximise conversation options. Stats are: Str 13 (for cleave), Dex 16, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 14 - 2 rogue and 2 fighter levels. Weapon finesse, dodge, mobility and spring attack, with high tumbling, allow for relatively safe movement in battle. I'll probably get the dash feat later in the game. As for prestige classes I don't know yet, maybe Shadow Thief? Or perhaps Duelist? Would be atractive as I have done the guard quests already and it would add a little spice to replaying the game. Maybe I'll got for dualwielding. Also open yet.

Thus far I have just left the village, reached lvl 4, and are about to recover that item from the lizardling dungeon. Conversational skills are good enough to solve the dialogue with the chieftain through diplomacy or bluff - and get out nonviolent. Only that you get more xp and a cool item by killing them all, which is what I did (my char is chaotic). With just a shortsword damage dealt out is rather moderate, and sneak attacks don't (yet) hit too often.

 

The 'conversation' solutions to problems usually yield alignment point shifts.

Diplomacy often gives Law & Good shift (I've only ever seen one Chaotic Good shift in the whole game)

Bluff/Lie often gives Chaos shifts (I can't recall it ever giving evil or good shifts). Note Casavir often objects to you telling lies.

Intimidate will often yeild Evil points if you follow up your threats with violence.

Overuse of one skill will lead to alignment changes. That's no great problem for a rogue but you have to be careful with an alignment dependent class such as a Paladin or Warlock.

Some of the best solutions require very high skill levels so its probably not wise to spread your points across too many conversation skills.

 

I've played a Fighter-Rogue the whole way through the game. And from my experience, Dex-Based damage is far inferior to STR-based. It's better to Sneak Attack with a Greatsword than two small-er weapons...Unless you've got Monkey-Grip. Heh. The thing you HAVE to remember, is that Sneak Attacking requires movement. Being a (effective) rogue in combat is HARD. So high Tumble and Dodge/Mobility is a must. So, good choices there.

Dex is almost a non-important skill for rogues. The only thing it really counts against is Hide/Move Silently and Open Locks, which, as you've said, you're not even doing. So, I would drop Weapon Finesse, and swap your STR/DEX to get S-16, D-13. Grab Two-Weapon Fighting (it's all you really need as the penalties are too high for Improved/Greater Two Weapon fighting. And since you wont be hiding/opening locks, whack on the hugest armour you can.
Tumble is also (sort-of) a non-skill. Since the DC is always 15. So, since you're a rogue as well, you could probably pump about 10 points into it and be set. In fact, if you're wearing Full Plate armour, you probably wont get that much of a bonus, but, if you've got Mobility as well, hardly anything should ever hit you.

My fighter-rogue went something like this;
S-16, D-15, C-14, I-14, W-10, Ch-8.
He walked around in Full Plate, had a Greatsword and Tower Shield (thanks to Monkey Grip...Thanks to weapon focus and Fighter BAB, the -2 penalty was neglible) and he had Dodge/Mobility. Send Khelgar (or other 'tank') in first so the enemies target him. I ran around behind the combat, and Sneak Attacked with a Greatsword for MASSIVE damage. Sure, they got Attacks of Oppurtunity, but, magical Full Plate, magical Tower Shield, and 10 ranks in tumble gave me enough AC that it hardly mattered. The -1 penalty to CHA wasn't really that bad if you just pump points into your conversation skills. And, as a rogue who wasn't hiding or opening locks, I had plenty of skills left to go round.

And of course there were always Whirlwind Sneak Attacks, which were nice. And Great Cleave...

In any case; Just to add onto Saul's points about conversation skills (and he's right on everything by the way).
Using Diplomacy to get a reward (usually money) will result in an evil/chaotic shift. Usually evil. But diplomacy in 'normal' situations wont do a whole lot.

As for PrC, the duelist is a good build for a fighter-rogue, but, as of the current patch (1.03?) it's still bugged, so it doesn't work that well. Plus duelists are stuck using Rapiers and Dex-based damage, and rely on the Parry skill. Dex-damage is inferior, and if a duelist has to fight more than one opponent, he's dead. D-E-D. Dead.

Hope that helps.

~ Cheesegear

 

I agree that dex based play is disadvantageous compared to str based play. That's why I corrected that, re-started with basically the same char, only that I switched DEX and STR. I also replaced the finesse feat with monkey grip feat for better offensive versatility, allowing for use of falchions in particular with shield or two-handed for better damage dealing later in the game when my char will have better strength.

As for skill points, I have decided to ignore intimidate, and focus on diplomacy and bluff. If I go for weapons master, I'll spend a few points there, though.

 

I dont think I would ever be able to play a character with monkey grip. It just seems so horrible, possibly some huge barbarian of somekind but a rogue?! There is a limit to powergaming even for me.

I tend to play dex based fighter/rogues just because it feels better, if I want to do str dmg I play pure fighter and bash in heads. A fighter/rogue is more about finesse, getting many attacks and sneak attacks. Could never play one without high and hide and move silently either. Jeez, I sound like a purist which I am most certainly not.

 

There are rogues and rogues And yes, this here is without a doubt, a powergaming character.

But it's not that bad. I'm going for a Falchion wielding half-elf. A falchion does 2d4 damage. A bastard sword, or a Katana, can both be wielded single handed or two handed, and do 1d10 damage. I think a falchion should be an exotic weapon, too. That I'm using monkey the grip feat sounds wield, but it is misleading.

But I agree, somewhat, about the feel part. As a slight comfort: I have a halfling fighter-rogue built, who is just that, all dexterity and finesse - and he is using a shortswortd or kukris or daggers. And I'm going to play that char afterwards.

 

It all depends on what type of Fighter-Rogue you want to play. The character he described (i.e; Talkative and letting other people do traps/locks) didn't sound like a Dex-Rogue.

You've got Fighter-Rogues, and Rogue-Fighters. There's a subtle difference, but it's there. Put it this way; There's the Thug kind of Rogue, which'll bash your head in and steal your money. Or there's the quiet pickpocket-type of Rogue who'll steal your money without you knowing.

If the Swashbuckler PrC was in NWN-II I'd be one of those (My favourite PnP character is a Swashbuckler, he's great!), and THOSE are Fighter-Rogues.
The Duelist PrC seems like a Fighter-Rogue, but it isn't. It's just a Dex-Based Fighter. And even then, it's still pretty bad.

The Fighter-Rogue in Full Plate and Monkey Grip and Tower Shields is a bit much, yes of course. I agree. Doesn't mean it wasn't fun to play though

~ Cheesegear

 

The swashbuckler type is probably best examplified by the duelist prestige class. But I don't quite see why these sort of fighter necessarily should end up dualwielding rapiers and daggers. I'm not all that into these musketeer type of analogies. I'd rather have the japanese rogue variant, using traditional swords, and talking himself into and out of trouble, without necessarily being a thief. I have Neeshka for that.

Well, I, don't laugh, restarted again, human char this time - Str 15, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 14 - weapon focus in katanas. I decided that Katanas are the best looking bladed weapon in the game. I think my char will go for chainmails, and my char will probably end up a weapons master, maybe also a shadow thief (wee, that would be four classes, two of them prestige).

Exotic weapon feat + katanas is about as potent as monkey grip + falchions. But the feel-bad part's gone

And what shall I say, this char, too, has reached Fort Locke and is about to go to Highcliff.

 

So far I've half way through the quests in Neverwinter, and are about to fight my way through the Back Alley. I'm really looking forward to that fight.

My char's lvl 8 now (rogue 2/ fighter 6) and has all the feats and skills neccessary to choose weapon master prestige class on next level up, on reaching lvl 9. First feats chosen then will be power attack and cleave, followed by the critical feats.

My char is somewhat short of hitpoints, but has an excellent punch, with a nice sneak attack ability on top. I will improve on that.

I split the game upon reaching Neverwinter. I have already played through until Old Owls Well after joining the thieves, and now do the same with the watch.

For the char the prestige class shadow thief would be excellent, and I aim on that in my thieve variant.

In the watch variant I don't really know if the Neverwinter Nine presige class is really worth it. Maybe I'd rather choose shadowdancer. Don't know yet.

 

My rogue (2) fighter (6) weapon master (5) just passed the trial, beating Torio in every duel of words thanks to a superior diplomacy skill. I find diplomacy a most useful skill, closely followed by bluff and somewhat surprisingly lore and appraise.

I'll level next as a rogue, and that will allow me, with a few points left from last level up, to max out bluff (where I found my char coming short), giving me 2d6 sneak attack as a nice bonus on top of my char's nasty fighting abilities.
My char creamed Lorne I was happy that just before the fight I had Shandra craft me an adamantite katana, that so far I have been unable to enchant. Considering Lorne was evil, I attacked with my keen holy katana +3, and my first attack was a critical Ki strike with 70 or so damage. That put him right into frenzy. It took a little getting chased around until I got the point about 'damage resistance' The fight was short.

The raw and brute force of a frenzied berserker is no match for the superior skill of a weapon master! (PS: A lucky weapon master with proper gear )

Admittedly, looking at his blade after the fight, and considering his probable feat setup I have been lucky that he didn't hit me critical first. I was considering giving my char falchions, too, which would have 'freed' the feat I needed to spend for exotic weapons for something like dash or great cleave. The decidedly greatest advantage of a katana is looks, not power. I wield it two-handed most of the time, and it wouldn't have really made a difference compared to a falchion, except for the latters better crit range. I tend to think the Falchion is the better choice from a powergaming point of view. Just a pity they made it look so silly.

Just for background, that is how a real two handed falchion looked like: It looks not only cool but foremost *functional*. No silly zig-zag-blades that would only break. The scimitar got it nearly as bad. Both weapons look so silly in NWN2 that I'm loathe to choose them. The above weapon, the two handed falchion, was popular in Germany during very late middle ages and the renaissance, and the weapon masters of that time like Johann Lichtenauer used it and developed techniques to use it to good effect. For more background, a hands-on review for the pictured weapon. In that sense it would be as much in character for a weapon master as a katana, and would be realistic to wield wearing breast or half-plate armor. At that time chainmail or scales were obsolete as they no longer offered adequate protection against the blades of the time. In German it was called 'Großes Messer', which translates as 'big knife'. Indeed

Iirc they had a great sword in NWN 1 that looked the way.

[ January 16, 2007, 16:12: Message edited by: Ragusa ]

 

Well, I didn't have the impression I had to wait. The fight took about 45 seconds. Seriously. It took me a brief while to switch weapons, but that's it. I don't think frenzy could by that have already been over. Lorne just landed 2 normal hits on my char before he was down.

I have a savegame from before the trial. I can reload and check the battle report if you want to know for sure.

 

Ah yes, BTA, you're of sadly correct. Adamantite does not penetrate the frenzy of a Berserker.

I reloaded. I had to. It was your *if* The damage caused is displayed, but with the report: 'Damage ineffective: Target cannot be killed during a frenzy'. I overread that.
It happened so quick ... well, maybe a little longer than 45 seconds - it also was late yesterday night ...

Having just replayed it, it's really nasty. I dealt him a few nasty crits when frenzied, so in effect I have then killed Lorne about ... three times? My strategy eventually was basically running away from Lorne until his frenzy expired, and them whack him with another Ki strike. Game over. Got out of it with two thirds of my hitpoints

I found what he growled at my char during his frenzy instructive: 'Will you stand still!'

 

Well, I just brought my char to the beginning of chapter III and so far I am very happy with it, except for the piss poor will save. Levels are rogue 3, fighter 6, weapon master 7, cleric 1. In conversations, he gets along perfectly.

That cleric level is my last one, and while I was offered to join the Neverwinter Nine, I found that particular prestige class actually ... pointless. I chose a cleric level with trickery and travel domains, gaining the feint (which is good as my char has now bluff 20) and barbarian movement feats. I think that was a better deal.
The shadowdancer class would have been an alternative, too.

So my keep is prospering, slowly, and I'm broke, which isn't all that bad, because I at least have a steady supply of loot. I like the story so far very much, and I'm happy I eventually got rid of Shandra. I haven't yet decided wether I want to turn Khelgar into a monk. I could any time.

 

I just threw one of those bombs on him that I found in the cave. It kept exploding on him and Lorne was down in no time. It seems I learned something from Erikson's Bridgeburners.

 

Im making right now a katana wielding barbarian lvl 1 rogue lvl 2 fighter lvl 5, and its been pretty easy, i intend to go to WM. Could you guys tell me if the improved critical feat stacks with the weapon masters lvl7 critical? Iam kind new to 3edition. I fell that some of the benefits from some classes are a bit unbalanced , i think a frenzied berserk or paly divine champ look a bit better on the offensive than my caracter... im inclined to make a rogue fighter dual wielding short swords, is it really worth it? could somebody tell me wich feats to chose? thanks

 

It does stack, however, improved critical nullifies the keen ability of weapons.

That means on the plus side that you needn't worry about wasting any slot on a keen enchantment for your weapons and can use it for, say, massive criticals or so (though arguably holy enchantment yields more benefits).