Goodbye

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Goodbye everyone. It was fun.

 

... Any reason in particular that you're going?

 

Goodbye.

 

Laches, you're kidding, right? What brought this on?

I always thought you were the voice of reason in the Alley when things start to get out of hand (not that happens much - no, not at all ).

Well, I guess you gotta do what you feel you gotta do; I just hope you'll reconsider.

 

We don't say goodbye, we say see you soon.

 

Hate to see you go. Hopefully, you will reconsider.

Best wishes while you are away. I hope you find all that you seek.

 

/Nodding in an agreeing way...

Bye for now.

 

Be good, Laches.

 

Later, Laches...

But isn't this a little extreme a reaction to Shura leaving ?

See you @

 

This post started as a PM in response to one of a few different inquiries and as such, may be disjointed and nonsensical at times (more so than usual):

I apologize for taking a while to get back to you. It has taken me a bit to get my thoughts on the subject in order. First, let me say that I appreciate the kind words.

I feel that the Alley has become too highly polarized to be worthwhile.

I was driving home late Friday night from work listening to “The Only Living Boy in New York” and there is a line that goes something like, “I get all the news I need from the weather report.” While that will never be me, it did put me in a mellow and happy sort of mood. I got home and turned on the internet. Read about my college team’s spring football practice. Still in a good mood – the offense is looking better. Looked at a political website I look at – still a good mood. People disagree all the time but it ends there. It’s civil and it’s fun.

Looked at SP. I read one post where people were labeled as a means to be dismissive – no substance, just a drawing of lines. I open up another thread and find a comparison of Bush to Hitler. I start to type in that I think those type of comparisons are ridiculous but then I stop because I realize, if I make that post I’ll be labeled as a Bush supporter/conservative and dismissed. It will go nowhere. The fact that I’ve said on many occasions and even have had an extremely long post with many replies regarding why I thought Bush needs to go would be irrelevant. To ever defend Bush, even to the extent of saying he is not Hitler, is suspect to some. To attempt to say, ‘I don’t like Bush but this is ridiculous’ only earns a label of not only ‘conservative’ but also leads to people saying you lack conviction and courage because it is difficult for some to perceive how you could disagree with policies and not dislike the person. I looked back at the ongoing Libya thread today thinking about how to reply to you, and saw a backhanded insult of Jack Funk – much like the recent insults in the string of episodes that fed Jack Funk up. Of course, Jack Funk hasn’t even been involved in that thread for quite some time, but he is still labeled (in a backhanded manner) as part of a group with the clear implication being that those who disagree with a majority opinion held by the forum are stupid, naïve, or callous.

Likewise, another post just today pre-classifies a large group in a similar dismissive manner on the opposite side – all are ‘liberals’ or ‘socialists’ if they disagree with a certain opinion. This is commonplace on the Alley.

I thought about this for a bit trying to pin down what it was exactly that bothered me and then it struck me – it isn’t something that is present that I dislike. Rather, there is something missing that I would like to find. What is missing is strikingly obvious and simple when you step back and consider the forum as a whole – respect. There is a tremendous lack of respect for other individuals in the Alley.

It is this fundamental lack of respect that can lead to people consistently comparing others views to those of Nazis, to telling a large swathe of people that their national holiday is a celebration of killing babies, or to telling an individual that he is a killer at heart. It can lead to dismissing certain points of views as being simply anti-government X.

This lack of respect is, in my opinion, related to the polarization that you see on the board. When you classify people into groups, it becomes that much easier to be disrespectful of them as they lose their individuality. It becomes a case of ‘us’ vs. ‘them.’ It becomes ‘conservative’ vs. ‘progressive’, ‘white hats’ vs. ‘black hats’. Group names are used as aspersions. Take a look at the way in which ‘conservative’ is typically used on the board and you will see, I think, that it is used as an insult as often as not. ‘Liberal’ is used similarly on the board.

This polarization and lack of respect isn’t present on all boards. There are many forums where hot topic issues are regularly debated that do not degenerate. There are international forums which I regularly visit that never degenerate in the manner the Alley consistently does. The internet lends itself to a lack of respect in that it is impersonal anyways. But to say that the lack of respect on the Alley is merely because of the nature of the internet is a cop out, an excuse, rationalization, and a way of ignoring a problem. The problem doesn’t lie with the internet; it lies with the individuals who participate in the Alley. The problem exists only because it is perpetuated and tolerated by the individual participants – like me.

This polarization also leads to discussions that aren’t very interesting and are superficial at best. And I will hope you’ll forgive me if I use an example from today which you were involved in. Darkwolf, always a poster who draws fire, posted regarding Kerry today. He essentially posted a quote of Kerry and his position on Iraq during the Clinton administration. His stated position on Iraq under Clinton appeared, at first glance, to contradict some of the things he says regarding Iraq and Bush now that he is a Presidential candidate.

The original post was delivered in such a way to label and insult though. Perhaps as a consequence, the only responses have been to completely ignore the substance of his post. Nobody has said, ‘yes, Kerry has changed his position.’ Nobody has said, ‘no, Kerry’s position is consistent because X,Y,Z.’ Nobody has said, using the famous Keynes’ quote, ‘when the facts change I change my mind, what do you do?’ All of these would have been substantive responses. None of these responses followed the initial labeling. Instead, an initial insult only led to insults in response and nobody is talking about a real and genuine issue that seems to be the elephant in the room. If somebody said, ‘you know, Kerry does flip on the issue’ I suspect that there would be a branding as a ‘conservative’ of that person by many and likely a response of, ‘oh yeah, well Bush is worse.’ [Edit – there have been more posts since I initially wrote this. At first, there were approximately a half-dozen posts in the thread. I’m not commenting on any individual post as I wrote this prior to any substantive post.] There could be a very interesting discussion regarding 1)whether Kerry does change positions with the wind or whether that is a false allegation and also 2)whether we should expect a politician to maintain consistent positions throughout his or her career. Isn’t it ok to change your mind? That discussion won’t take place.

I wont’ pretend that I haven’t contributed and been one of the key culprits to this gradual degeneration of civility. I deserve more blame than anyone else. I am the chief offender. I do not have to continue to be a part of it however.

It has occurred to me that it would be possible to change the atmosphere of the Alley. In his farewell/welcome-back thread Jack Funk said that these type of personal attacks are tolerated by the board and he realized that he had to be tough enough to handle them. This was considered an insult by Tal who stated that they aren’t and that it was Jack’s duty to report them in order for the moderators to do something about these insults; or if he wanted something done about these type of posts.

This is a poor system in my opinion and I do not mean this to be insulting to Tal or any of the moderators whose time and effort I appreciate. It is a poor system for a few reasons. First, because it relies on someone “tattling” on another. This is something that, in the US at least, we aren’t comfortable doing. We don’t respect someone running and crying to the teacher. Also, even though it is an attempt to create something of a communal effort, it still relies on a small number of individuals to police the boards and they may or may not have the time, opportunity, etc. to check the forums. That’s understandable.

A better system, in my opinion, wouldn’t be a system at all. It would be to self-police. If a group of people just said to each other, ‘we’re going to make sure the forums remain civil’ then they probably could make a difference. This could work particularly well if the group was willing to be active and reinforce each other. For example, when Darkwolf posted, if everyone responded: ‘you know, the first part of your post in nonsense and we as a group will ignore it because it isn’t worth our time; The rest of it though brings up a legitimate question Yada, yada, yada’ then gradually a difference could be made.

I think the forum is worthwhile and important because, for one, for many young readers/contributors who are attracted to the forums because of the game content it is their first real introduction and opportunity to participate in a political/ethical/cultural discussion and experience. It is because of this that I wish the forum could be more civil – it is not only that individuals deserve to be respected but also that the forum is a learning ground for many on how to talk about serious subjects. I have found that there is an increasing lack of civility in the world and, speaking professionally, I see that reflected increasingly in briefs, trials, and even mediation settings. It is a growing trend. We shouldn’t accept this trend and we certainly shouldn’t embrace it.

In addition of course, the types of discussions found in the Alley can be a great deal of fun. But polarized bickering destroys the relaxed atmosphere conducive to enjoyment. It turns the debate into a competition rather than an opportunity to share and learn differing opinions. I am amazed by the tenacity with which people can hold to a view because they perceive to do otherwise is to be defeated.

While I feel like an organized effort to self-police could have positive results, I suspect that I would rouse too much suspicion to play a meaningful part in that effort. I am also somewhat exasperated.

I would submit for consideration though the idea of a signed and voluntary petition amongst members who wish to participate in the forum to maintain a certain standard for posting; a written social contract of sorts. Whatever standard the participants want to adopt could be self-determined amongst the participants. It is entirely possible that I am alone or at least in a minority with regards to my perception. It may be that there is not any problem and the above is just pretentious rambling. I accept that possibility.

This also may not be acceptable to Tal for a variety of reasons. I’m sure there are acceptable alternatives.

I hope that answers any questions, specifically the questions I’ve been sent via PM. It was long and, I suspect, filled with false self-importance and entirely too serious. It is, after all, only an internet forum. But, at the same time, I perceive it as the way in which individuals, real people, interact and it may have a spillover into the real world.

This was also probably the most communitarian sort of writing I’ve ever put to paper. I feel dirty.

I will not participate in the Alley again. If a new game comes out that I wish to play that would be covered by SP, I may be back to see that forum. I do not intend to log in to SP again though unless it is to respond to a PM I’m notified of by email. So, this is my last post (my last, last post as it turns out – I don’t envision a last, last, last post).

I apologize for the lengthiness of this post and wish everyone the best. Godspeed.

 

Well said. You gave me a lot to think about.

 

Laches, even though you might not see this, it's posts like your last one that fully support what I said in my first post in this thread:

Now, as to one of your comments:

No you aren't - it seems to me that you were one trying to tell people to stop being ridiculous.

I don't know if the "self-policing" would work, but it might be worth a shot. One of the big reasons that many people avoid the Alley, either for the most part (such as myself) or completely (as with many others) is for the very reason you state - lack of respect. Maybe a different "tone" to the Alley would encourage some of these people to get more involved.

I for one am very sorry to know that you won't be back, but as Jack Funk said in the post above, you've given us lots to think about. Thank you.

 

Goodbye then and Godspeed. AoDA will lack the mighty defender of the US. You've been a vital part of its history.

 

*Tries to read the whole package*

*Gets a headache*

No, once I got to the half-point, I remembered that I could as well start reading my uni books Anyway, as long as you intent to surf on Internet; learn how to ignore those people with attitude problems.

 

Later Hater

 

Damn. Now I'm the only one on AoDA that doesn't implicity or explicity hate the United States.

Oh well. (Groan). At least create a web-blog and keep posting your thoughts to the Internet.

 

I think Laches made some excellent points, and I think it's quite clear that he does not want to censor anyone's opinions and is definitely not a Bush supporter. (To make things clear, neither am I, to put it mildly.)

Maybe Americans are more "touchy" - I don't really know. How many people go around criticizing Latvians, anyway? The U.S. is the most powerful coutnry in the world, hence it draws the most criticism. And we're going through an incredibly rough time right now. We're more polarized and edgy than we have been since at least Vietnam, maybe even the Civil War. We've got a media that's consistently censored and rude. There has been a serious drop in the civility of our public discourse just in the last 10-15 years or so. Our economy is in the tank and "culture wars" are raging. And now we're in a real war that most of us know will make people in other countries despise us more than they ever have.

I think some of us feel we're being attacked on all sides. Inside our own country, we're being watched more closely than ever before for signs that we might be "dangerous" to the current administration. We're trying to persuade our fellow citizens that we should be internationalists; now how in the heck can we do that when people are comparing Bush to Hitler? How can we do that when people are generalizing about Americans being dumb and violent? We as human beings and citizens of a country in crisis need solidarity and support from the outside world, not generalized attacks. The administration's actions do not represent the American people. (I just know someone's gonna come along to flame that point. See: always on edge.)

Further, Laches brought up posts BY Americans that are totally uncivil. Name-calling is prevalent in this country, and anyone who tries to have a thoughtful discussion WILL be verbally attacked from both sides. People I totally agree with have chastised me for trying to get deeper into an issue. At this point, most Americans avoid political discussions with people they don't already agree with completely because they don't want to be personally insulted.

I think Laches was trying to reach out to people from other countries and with other points of view on these boards, and he got burned out from all the negativity. And he's right about something else; to Americans, "tattling" is a cardinal sin. That's one of the few things that holds true for all Americans regardless of any other beliefs. Telling us to report incivility to the moderators... well, most of us just can't do it.

 

It's got nothing to do with nationality. If you don't like the criticism of your country or government, ignore it. It's going to happen. And just be gracious about the criticism, after all it's only an opinion.