Halfling or Tiefling Thief.

Remove all ads!

Which do you think is better for a thief i'm leaning more towards tiefling over halfling but what do you guys think. The thief shall be used mainly for the thief skills and sneak attack. And will take ranger for dual wielding and Barbarian maybe for speed.

 

Tiefling is hardly a good bargain over standard human, if rogue is considered. Just a total of +2 stat points, and 1 skill point less than human - which means it needs 2 INT more than the human version does. Plus, your human gets a feat for free.

However, haflflings have some nice characteristics, too. They don't suck, but humans are better from the point of view of power.

My rogue in a party of six was rogue(2)/ranger(x).

My brother's one (of my design) was rogue/ranger/barbarian/fighter. Fighter only needs 4 levels, so the rest was 3-4 except one class. Logic dictates a good one would be rogue(x)/ranger(3)/barbarian(3)/fighter(4). Barbarian and fighter fall behind in skills, that's why rogue and not ranger as the main one. Perhaps ranger, if your INT is high enough (and definitely human race), and if you don't need all so many skills.

To sum up: human is the best. Halfling is better than tiefling.

 

I don't agree Tiefling gets +2 INT which is the equivalent of 1 extra skill point(better even as it will give you a bonus to some skills). And as Rogues need many skill points they wont have a penalty to INT so i dont see the skill points of human as an advantage. As with the extra 3 from fighter 4 levels and the ranger class' Two weapon Fighting and Ambidexterity do i really need one more feat(i really want to know do I cause halfling gets that aswell).

Also as the charisma is no penalty to my thief the dexterity brings the bonus uo to +4 and the ability to start with 20 DEX.

And favoured class for all 3 will be rogue as for the case of human it will be my highest class.

Also the tiefling gets blindness innate ability and small but still usefull resistances. And the halfling gets many bonuses not sure about what exactly they all are but there lots including i think +1 to ranged damage.

So with all these things the human only has one feat above tiefling and the tiefling has the ability of 20 DEX to start with, elemental resistances and an innate ability over human so i dont see how human is better.

Also the halfing Strongheart i think gets a feat so is only skill points behind human and still gets many racial bonuses(including 20 DEX) so is human really better than either of them


However, haflflings have some nice characteristics, too. They don't suck, but humans are better from the point of view of power

I never said halflings suck.

BTW why did your brother use 3 levels of fighter and Barbarian what does a thief gain after the first 1 in each.

 

Tiefling gets +2 INT, +2 DEX, -2 CHA. This makes +2 stat points net. Humans get +1 skill point per level, which is as much as 2 INT points produce. Which means that, given the ECL penalty of one level, Tiefling isn't any better than human.

Tieflings get as much skill points as humans with INT scores lower by 2 points. This means 12 INT tiefling gets what 10 INT human gets. 14 INT tiefling gets only as much as 12 INT human. And so on. Therefore, tieflings need more INT for the same number of skill points than humans do.

Feats are always useful, especially at the beginning. Weapon Finesse is what you absolutely need. Weapon Focus is required if you want Weapon Specialisation. Improved criticals will increase the chance of rogue dealing some good damage even when not actually backstabbing. This makes 4 feats for melee. Weapon Focus and Specialisation in bow, plus Rapid Shot makes another 3. Will save is going to be low and could be bolstered by a feat or two. Blindfight never hurts. Heck, even strongback helps. Unless you're a single class fighter, there's always a useful feat to choose.

But you're going to be one level behind. Later in the game, you're not going to get any XP from kills (or very rarely and very little), but just from quests. Getting over 10000 XP (levels 10+) from quests is quite a long process for a solo character, let alone a big party where the XP is divided.

And I fail to recall saying you said that.

Four, not three. Read again. No point taking three levels in fighter. Either one or four. One level gets you all weapons and armours, four levels grant you elligibility for weapon specialisation (you can select the weapon specialisation feat for your chosen weapon). Barbarian got him movement speed increase, some big HP etc while not impairing his Attack Bonus.

It would be a good idea to end questions with a question mark (?). That would let people know if you're saying something or asking something.

 

I meant 3 levels of Ranger not fighter i get the reason for 4 fighter just not 3 ranger.
So whats the reason for 3 ranger?

I will play through in HoF mode as well so Xp really wont be a problem.

I took most of these feats exept for the weapon focus and specialisation. And many more thief specific skills such and Imp. Evasion, Crippling strike and arterial strike with another thief i played by level 15. And with the 4 fighter levels i get 3 extra feats enough to take focus in both bows and short blades and specialisation in one. I know theres many feats to choose but does 1 make a difference and by level 30 which i will reach with HoF i think i will have taken every feat i needed.

I just meant the +2 INT and extra skill points equal each other out. With the INT more usefull as it will also give a +1 boost to INT based skills.

[ March 31, 2004, 10:57: Message edited by: Goon66 ]

 

Skill points and feat is better still.

Good. The reason is avoiding the ECL penalty. It must be all within one level difference except for favoured class. Ranger gives free dual-wielding, some skills as class skills (and similar to rogue ones), racial enemy and some dialogues. After you have reached 4 levels in fighter, it's better to take another warrior class (paladin, ranger or barbarian) if you can afford it without getting the XP penalty for uneven multiclassing. For soloers, ranger(4) might be a good idea if they have enough wisdom to receive bonus spells. Not like first level ranger spells are really useful. Especially given the casting level 2 of a level 4 ranger

 

Damn i forgot about XP penalty and though i want a Ranger level all ready planned for it(the reasons you said) but i didnt think about the XP penalty when added to 4 fighter levels.

Will RogueX/Ranger2/Barbarian3/Fighter4 get the XP penalty as cause they are kind of all connected by one level??? as the Extra 2 ranger levels for ranger3 for no XP penalty are such a waste of levels.

BTW were the 3 Barbarian levels just to get rid of the XP penalty as well or do they have a use apart from just what 1 level would give??

 

Not much other use. However, once you've got specialisation elligibility, barbarian is a good replacement for fighter levels.

4 - 2 = 2

 

I think i will just take the XP penalty and save those 4 levels for better use. They will increase sneak attack by 2d12 and with only small amounts of health to gain i prefer the extra sneak attack damage. As i will already loose 3d6 with the useful levels. i cant accept the loss of a potential 30 damage from the highest of 90 i think 72 is better than 60 and some more HP and faster levels.

BTW can maximised attacks work when using sneak attack??

 

AFAIK they work *with* sneak attack, but not *on* sneak attack. This means you only get max damage from the weapon, before all bonuses apply.

The multiclassing penalty is huge. If you like, well, take it. After all, it doesn't bar you from achieving level 30 in HoF solo, anyway.

 

I think i will just leave him Rogue24/Ranger1/Barbarian1/Fighter1 then level up the last three as fighter so the XP penalty wont occur till the end. And then he will only need a one levels.

 

While a Tiefling only gains +2 total stat points from its racial bonuses, as Chevalier points out, keep in mind that this statement takes into account that CHA = DEX, which is not true for a theif. 2 points of charisma is negligible, meaning that the Tiefling effectively gains 2 points of intelligence and dexterity, two important stats for a theif, at the cost of nothing, more or less. If you're looking at a theif for the purposes of sneak attack/theif skills, then you don't really need charisma anyway. Just thought I should add that.

 

That's not quite true. A Tiefling with 2 higher int will get 2 more skills than the human (starting skills increased by an additional 4 while humans get a +2 skill bonus at L1). It also counts as an additional point for search, disable device, and alchemy, the last of which may or may not be desirable for fighting rogues, and others that fighting rogues don't really need.

A pity that none of these feats are as useful as that extra AC tieflings can get over humans.

Which is why an ECL character dragging down the party level is desirable over just another 0 ECL character.

 

I agree Tiefling is better and what i chose. Though i dont like how there are now good tiefling portraits like haer'dalis that show that they are not really human.

 

But you still need the 2 INT points more. 2 points is the exact amount of points that tieflings get over humans. Which means that, if humans get 76 points total and tieflings get 78 points total, the +2 INT drags your tiefling back to 76. Then, you can, of course, claim your 20 starting DEX, but this will be at the expense of another stat.

I don't know where you get your ideas about the game from. I would suggest that you read the manual or trace the creation screen before framing any judgement. Tieflings *don't* get any extra AC over humans. Tieflings can take 20 DEX from start, as opposed to human 18. That's just one, I repeat: one, AC more.

And now please allow me to enlighten you: that's the exact amount by which the Dodge feat improves your AC in melee or the Deflect Arrows feat improves your AC vs ranged attacks. I agree, though, that they're largely useless. Who cares about one AC point? You can get Weapon Focus if you plan on taking fighter levels for Weapon Specialisation. You can take Blindfight. You can achieve immunity to poison by the Yuan-ti ancestry feat (Snake Blood) selectable only at level 1. You can improve your saving throws all by one (luck of the heroes, human feat) or one of them by 1-2, be it Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Discipline, Bullheaded or Great Fortitude. Rapid Shot is a must-have. Precise Shot may also prove very helpful. Dash may save your life.

Also, Weapon Finesse is your most needed feat. It requires proficiency with small blade. Ergo: only humans and Strongheart halflings can have it from level 1.

If your strength allows it, Power Attack is a great idea. How much damage are you going to deal with a short sword? Sometimes you need to overcome someone's resistance. What then? Also, it enables Cleave - a bonus attack received when killing an opponent, and at the exact same bonus.

Expertise: up to +5 AC at the expense of to hit bonus. This may make the enemy hit you only on a natural 20 roll. Sort of once in 20 attempts, instead of, for example getting hit in 25% blows (15+). Especially useful for soloers.

Note also that there are several high-level feats. This means that it's better to take low-level feats early if you're going to take them at all. It's better than, let's say, failing your will saves constantly and having to take Iron Will instead of Improved Criticals or Improved Evasion or Arterial Strike or Hamstring or Slippery Mind.

Please allow me to introduce Basic Maths:

1 - Tiefling's ECL
0 - the ECL of all remaining party members
n - the number of characters in the party

x = (((n - 1) * 0) + 1) / n

x is the number by which the Tiefling "drags party level down". This is 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5 or 1/6. Wow, what a great number!

You surely get a lot of XP for that!

If you want to drag party level down, you'll be better off with adding low-level characters after the party have amassed some considerable levels of experience.

On a final note: it is very important to read manuals and trace creation screen options. Everything is there. I understand that combining those options into a deadly result may require some insight and some experience, but the basics are properly listed and easily accessible. It also helps in discussion if you have a firm grasp of what really is in the game. For example, I went through creating a Tiefling rogue and comparing it with a possible human counterpart just to give you a more competent answer. This means that I have IWD2 character creation screen in the background while talking about feats, skills and the like. I believe I'm not asking too much when I politely suggest taking a look and speaking in precise terms. No offence intended or taken, it is only tiring a bit.

 

In other words, it's true that Tieflings with 2 more int will get more skills than a human with 2 less int.

In other words "that extra AC." This roughly amounts to a 5% higher chance to avoid physical attacks except in the cases where both would be hit 95% of the time or both require a natural 20 to hit.

I throw your accusations back at you: read the manual. "Snake Blood Effect: +2 bonus on Fortitude saving throws against poison and a +1. bonus on all Reflex saving throws. Prerequisite: Human" This is not immunity to poison.

Weapon Finesse has a prerequisite of +1 BAB. You can take it at L1 by starting as a ranger/fighter/barbarian, but this comes at the expense of a quite massive number of skill points lost from starting as a rogue. It's a pity that humans have to lose even further in skill points to the tiefling to get that 1 "essential" feat at L1. On a side note, since barbarian, fighter, paladin, and ranger all get small blade proficiency and 1 BAB at L1, all races can get it at L1.

Expertise and Power Attack both require BAB to use. To use this from L1 requires that the player starts as a fighter, again. Just how much does the human extra feat offer him at L1? Very little. Do suggest some plausible circumstances under which those feats that may or may not be useful are useful. In an entirely amorphous setting, a tiefling's +5 damage reduction to certain elements may very well save his life or his priest from a healing spell. Case: any time chests, enemies, or other objects use low damage elemental attacks in mass, such as next to everything in chapter 2.

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Perhaps you should sit atop a mountain peak and meditate upon the meaning of life while examining your character creation screen.

[ April 03, 2004, 19:39: Message edited by: Hojo Jojo ]

 

1. The paragraph you address with "in other words" is by no means anything close to what you say afterwards. I was in fact speaking about the sum total of stats, while you concluded that I said something about skill points. Brilliant.

Side-note: 2 skill points is really much. Isn't it? I mean, especially for a rogue who gets 4+INT bonus per level.

2. Ever heard of partial immunity?

3. Power Attack and Expertise come into use since level 2. They remain useful until the end. Ergo: it's better to get them early. If you get them later, you sacrifice a feat slot nonetheless and you are not able to use them until the late point at which you get them. In short: poor bargain.

4. Weapon Finesse et al or lots of skills. The choice is up to you. Depends if you want a thug or a diligent little thief with loads of skills.

5. 5% chance is surely a great difference. I mean, whole five percent. Isn't it amazing? Wow!

6.

A. I fail to recall saying that not all races can get small blade proficiency from the start. It's only humans and Strongheart Halflings who get a bonus feat.

B. There is no relation between classes gaining feats and races gaining feats. Try to be more precise, please.

C. Also, try to be consequent. We start as rogue or as another class. Is suddenly the loss of starting skill points less important now when it involves your point than when it involved mine? Hardly.

And, with this said, I leave you to your thoughts and the peculiar way in which you enjoy framing them. Good luck playing.

 

Quote: 2. Ever heard of partial immunity?

I've never heard anyone speak of immunity when they mean only partial. There's a whole lot of difference there. =)

Quote: 5. 5% chance is surely a great difference. I mean, whole five percent. Isn't it amazing? Wow!

Yes, five percent UNITS. But the difference of AC71 vs AC72 is that those pesky HOF mode Slayer Knights of Xvim need to roll a natural 20 to hit you instead of 19-20... Which in turn means *doubly* good defenses and thus *double* life expectancy. Not bad for +1 AC feat, no?

 

How do you get 72AC?

 

Through VERY careful character design AND getting all the right equipment AND spending half an hour buffing before a fight. It's for hardcore powergamers only.

I can't remember it exactly but it I think it requires a Deep Gnome Monk with max Wisdom and Dexterity, with Barkskin and about 10 other buffs applied.