"Hardcore" playing sensibility

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This is my first post at SP after many months of reading, so: hello.

I was wondering if anyone finds it reasonable to approach playing the game with a "hardcore" slant (if I might be forgiven a bit of Diablo II terminology). For those that do not know, in this context "hardcore" means achieving success in the game with no deaths. The Save/Load functions are used only to resume your place if you quit (or to cope with annoying glitches such as monsters disappearing mid-fight). I'm also going to be going mostly solo: I'll take along a romantic interest, and I always take Imoen, but I will single-handedly dispatch all foes, and use the other two as pack mules and for an occasional buff or heal.

I thought that I might give it a go with my latest character, but to my chagrin, I died in Irencius's dungeon to one of the lesser clay golems, who shaved off my remaining 30 (of 42) HPs with a single blow.

It's worth noting that I most likely could have avoided this premature end to my experiment if I had used an oil of speed for the encounter, as that would have given me the footspeed needed to outrun the golem and restealth around a corner. But the whole incident got me wondering if success without death is a reasonable goal for an experienced player in this particular game.

 

I tried to solo too in "hardcore mode". But all these stunnings etc really is a gamble. Although the chances of failure if you build the right character is small, eventually you'll get unlucky. And you'll curse the game far away. You have to at least have two persons in your party to keep a decent chance. A really tough Dwarven beserker/barbarian and then play defensive with lots of NPC's in your team up in front, is one rough but workable way around. A very good fighter/mage/thief with bonus merchant stuff does have a chance of crawling through with lots of NPCs.

Solo Hardcore is pretty much a matter of luck in my experience. But I think the idea of "hardcore" is a great one. Good luck with more tries.

 

That it is, a matter of luck I mean. What with all the stun, dominate, hold and death spells & effects, you'll always lose at some point no matter how well prepared you are.

 

Welcome here at SP, first of all
I have been toying with the idea of going "hardcore" through the game. I think it is a matter of luck mostly. The main problem is not, IMO, keeping up your hp, but making your saves. And you are going to miss one at some point...
That said, let us know if you will try again, and how far you will get.
And best of luck !

 

What might be a more reasonable expectation would be to take a full party of 5 NPC's along with you, and say only if MY PC dies, the game ends. You would be allowed to resurrect any of the party's NPC's.

Luck will still come into play, although there are a few things you can do to eliminate some of the more annoying ways to die. Certainly a barbarian or beserker will prevent you from dying because you are confused, scared, held, etc. Also, picking a class like a dwarf would help because of their better saving throws. You can't get lucky all the time, so you have to tip the scales in your favor so you don't have to get lucky very often.

 

Hello -

Although this may very well be true, I enjoy the game much more with few or one active players. When I play with a big party, I always feel as if I am leaving unexplored many facets of the various classes with which I am playing. In fact, often the sheer variety that is at my disposal in a big party can lead me to forget options. I'll finish a fight that I struggled with and then think, "darn, I forgot that x character had x ability that would have worked perfectly in that situation."

As long as the "hardcore" style interests people, here is another idea to consider: In D2 (the game from which I borrowed the "hardcore" concept), it is deemed perfectly acceptable to exit a game suddenly if you get into a tight spot. If you manage to quit in time (prior to death occurring), no departure from the hardcore ethos has occurred, and in fact you might be congratulated for your fast reflexes and good assessment of the situation.

Should this characteristic transfer over into "hardcore" BG2? My initial gut reaction is to say no, because such an allowance leads to easy exploitation of the save/load mechanism (e.g., "I used too many potions/used too many spells/lost too many HPs/etc. in that fight so I am going to do it again"). Even if you opted to use it only to avoid death instead of to attain slightly more favorable outcomes, it could still be abused (e.g., you see a finger of death on its way and immediately reload).

So, is there any step one could take to recreate in BG2 the safety equivalent of D2's "save and exit" escape mechanism without introducing cheesiness and exploitation?

 

I realise that I might be going against the accepted "norm" for D2, but I always felt that the "exit before dying" tactic was cheesy. In D2, you can't save your game, so you can't do the save/reload routine; the D2 tactic IMHO was just a way to try to get around that, and also to avoid the gold/XP penalties for dying. And in BG2, there would be nothing to be gained from employing the D2 tactic since in any case you are reloading your saved game anyway.

I agree with your comments about missing things with a large party though. Hardcore soloing just sounds to "iffy" based on the random save rolls.

 

Save and exit definitely sounds cheesy to me.
I mean, trying to "hardcore" this game is a quest of epic proportions, so IMO you should try it "clean". So, here is my suggestion: in minor battles you are allowed to leave the area all the way to the world map (I believe this way enemies will not follow you, but correct me if I am wrong). There is no shame about it, as you cannot allow some minor guy to get in the way of your divinity. In major battles, however, you'll have to stand and fight.
How does this sound to you ?

 

Hello -

@Kralizek:

That sounds very good, actually. Map switching offers a comparable exit in many situations, and is something I hadn't thought of since I haven't really used it as such in the past.

I've picked a new class variation for my next attempt, and will hopefully get further than Irenicus's clay golems. I'll update the thread with my progress periodically.

 

May the dices be with you - always!

 

Keep us updated with your progress !
Please post some strategies and though spots as well... who knows, someone might try to emulate you
And let the save rolls be with you !

 

This might be a bit late, but it follows up on Aldeth’s suggestion. (I might try this one myself when I’ve finished my current game.) It assumes that you don’t want a full-sized party (because you don’t want to “forget options”), but you aren’t necessarily insisting on having one character do all the work. It also gives some “forgiveness” for the randomness of the save rolls.

Create two characters in multi-player. This way, you can tailor-make both characters. You only need to keep the protagonist alive. (Resurrection spells could be used on the other one. If he/she can’t be resurrected, you must create another new one, or go without.) So if it were me, I’d have my protagonist as someone who isn’t usually going to be in the thick of things (ranged attacker or spell-caster), and the other one would be a tank. Then you could add the NPC’s as you describe. Therefore, at most, you would have 4 characters. If you want, you could even keep the NPC’s out of the action other than to buff/heal (as was your original intent), so you’d really only have 2 active characters (although personally, I would be inclined to let them participate fully). And you wouldn’t be allowed to use Kralizek’s world map idea. (I’m not sure how much this would really help anyway, since most of the “minor” battles that you could reasonably escape via the world map would be the ones encountered when travelling between areas (“you have been waylaid by enemies and must defend yourself”), and you aren’t allowed to use this technique for non-minor battles, which is where you are more likely to get into trouble. Of course, I guess it depends on your definition of “minor”.)

This is a “backup” plan in case the method you are going with doesn’t work out (but I hope it does ).

Thoughts?

 

Hello -

Don't forget you are talking to a guy whose first attempt ended at Irenicus's lesser clay golems.

A somewhat less pure, though I suppose ultimately more feasible, approach. I think that given the hardcore theme, resurrecting is taboo. And shielding my protagonist from the fight by hiding behind others is less satisfying.

That said, I think you've formulated a decent consolation ruleset for when my current attempt inevitably fails.

 

You are right here. However, I believe that from the PC point of view most battles are minor, i.e. not directly involved with his destiny. Therefore, for example, you would be allowed to escape from most of the early battles, like the slaver quest, most quests in Athkatla, Umar Hills,... Going after Bodhi would qualify as major, and therefore the whole crypt crawling business would be handled "properly". Most of the Underdark would qualify as major as well, since you are trying to follow Irenicus down there. Guess I said too much already, but I felt I should expand my concept
As for your idea, I side with Macready. An interesting approach, that could ultimately be successful, which however bites into the satisfaction of soloing hardcore.
Here is another one: your are allowed to have only one companion at a time (since you have to take Imoen with you in the beginning why not carry on the formula ?). Resurrection is not allowed, so your options would be restricted. Also, you cannot change them unless they die. This way you might have more options to play with and more bodies to throw around. How do you like the idea ?

 

at both!

I agree my suggestion is less than perfect, but all kidding aside, I think that Macready's current attempt is destined for failure simply because of the rolls. I agree however that resurrection should not be an option (poor thinking on my part).

Kralizek, if I understand your idea, you would be going with a 2 person party - protagonist and NPC - and the NPC would be allowed to fully participate. Slightly different from Macready's original approach in that: 1) he would have had up to 2 NPC's, but 2) neither one can do anything other than buff or heal. I can't speak for Macready, but I don't have a problem with it. Obviously more difficult than my idea, but I guess that's the whole point.

 

Yes. The reasoning behind it comes from when I tried to beat the game soloing. I found that the most reloads happened in the early parts of the game. At that point your saves are still way too bad and against many opponents it is too easy to get cornered. As the game progresses the gap between you and the enemies first closes and than goes to your advantage. Having one companion allowed could provide you with some fodder in the beginning (i.e. the PC wouldn't have to be the one rolling all the dices), and as the game progresses you could be provided with some buffing. Furthermore it would account for some extra strategic thinking, e.g. which NPC to use when. I agree it strays from the original idea, but I guess this is the moment to throw suggestions around.
Oh, and I have a question for Macready: since you came up with the idea, and if you still want to do it (please note that I did not use "try" ), what class would your PC be ? I guess the honour belongs to you.
Also, please post the name of the hero, so that we can all start connect with him.

 

ooh, save vs death *fails*

that was 14+ hours well spent.. or was it? Maybe I should.. nah.. the principle.. argh what the hell, screw the principle *clicks reload*

 

well, I believe the first few tries might be motivating enough not to reload.

Alternatively other people could try "hardcoring" the game and post here how far they went before dying. After the first death,of course, they would be allowed to use the "cheesiest of cheese" and reload.

 

Hello -

I may finish the game up no matter what happens. In D2, hardcore death is permanent and irreversible; in this little project, lack of death is a status symbol, and the first death will simply forfeit that status. I'll decide if and when that happens whether to bring the current character to fruition or try again.

With regards to both Splunge and Kralizek's ideas for slightly more forgiving rulesets, I like them both. I think they are very viable candidates for hardcore playing. In the present instance, though, I am being ambitious and going "mostly" solo.

So what does "mostly" mean?

* All damage against enemies will be caused by the protagonist (and hence, all enemy deaths). The one caveat to this rule is summoned creatures -- I'll be using them.

* Companion NPCs are not allowed to cast spells at opponents.

* Buffs and heals are allowed, but I'm not sure if I will allow them to take place in combat. Buffing before a fight is OK with me, and healing or curing after all foes are vanquished is OK with me, but I haven't decided whether combat healing/curing/etc. is OK. Thoughts welcome.

* I'll be taking Imoen (just because it feels wrong not to) and a romantic interest (undecided at present but I'll need to pick soon -- Viconia is tempting because of her class purity and buff/healing abilities). Normal practice will be to keep these folks invis'ed at all times. I'm not sure what to do about them being sucked into a fight (i.e., monsters that see invis) -- is resurrecting these pack mules OK?

As for the protagonist:

He's named...Macready! (surprise, surprise) after a character in a favorite movie. I usually can't stay away from thief types when I'm soloing, and for this outing I finally selected a halfling swashbuckler (as opposed to the conjurer/thief dual-class Macready who died so ignominously to the golems).

I spent an unabashed twenty minutes rolling for stats, and finally rolled 92 and settled on:

STR - 10
DEX - 19
CON - 18
INT - 10
WIS - 17
CHA - 18

Since STR is capped at an unacceptable 17 for a halfling, thus introducing an equipment dependency, I quickly decided to cannibalize natural STR to favor other stats. The 18 CON was for that last bonus point to saving throws that halflings with high CON receive, and the 18 CHA seemed fitting since swashbucklers are supposedly "the epitome of wit and grace," or something like that. The last stat to be favored was a toss-up, but it felt right to be more wise than intelligent, so I raised WIS to the cap of 17.

After this, an excellent omen! I am playing by core rules, so seeing how many hitpoints you start with is always cause to hold your breath. My level 8 swashbuckler started with... 63 out of a possible 64 hitpoints! That's right, no fooling, no funny business...I got an almost unheard of roll -- much better than the 42 HPs of the conjurer/thief predecessor.

I am pleased to say that I survived Irenicus's dungeon intact, and disposed of almost every foe in there. The only hostile creatures I did not kill were: the assassin who confronts the two duergar in the wand hall (I removed the magic missile wand before he could trigger it, but he died anyway -- it must be a scripted death), the escaped clone's assassin foe (she killed him), and two of the three assassins facing Ulvaryl (she finished off two rather quickly). Ulvaryl was the best kill I had -- softened up by the mage assassin's flame arrow, I did her in with the fire potion that is stowed away in a chest in Frennedan's room.

Upon advancing to level 9, Macready rolled an **8** for his HP roll (yes, I'm serious), and upon reaching level 10, he rolled a 5. So, by core rules, he has 76 of a possible 80 HPs, a truly staggering, once in a lifetime total. I hope that proves to be a good omen.

Anyway, at present he is standing unharmed in Waukeen's Promenade, just shy of level 11. He has three stars in dual wielding and one in short swords, and is dual wielding with a main hand THAC0 of 14 and off-hand of 16. Those numbers will improve by 1 at the next level up, and finding some magic weaponry and saving up and buying a certain belt will of course help immensely.

His saves, after factoring in his ring of protection, are:

Death - 5
Wand - 4
Petrify - 9
Breath - 13
Spells - 5

As for thieving skills:

Open Locks - 65 (soon to be 90 at the level-up)
Find Traps - 100
Move Silently - 60
Hide In Shadows - 100
Set Traps - 80

So, the game's afoot. I'll post another update after he has developed a bit.

[ August 15, 2003, 22:33: Message edited by: Macready ]

 

Well I shall certainly send a prayer on your way, may you complete what few (if any) has done before