Honor

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Inspired by few remarks in another thread, I started to wonder, what IS honor? Does it exist? What does it entail? What is honorable? Why does or does not it exist?

Opinions, anyone?
(*Runs off with the elves, too busy to rant*)

 

I say that honor does exist. Right and wrong also exist, though they may not always be easy to see. Doing the right thing is not always easy, and that's where honor comes in. Sometimes people go an extra step and go beyond the call of duty. They will even sacrifice their lives for the greater good. Take the firemen on 9/11, or for that matter any day of the week -- they perform a life and death job, and I guarantee it's not just for the money. Sometimes they die. Take any police officer -- they know that every time they approach a vehicle it could be their last. Take some starving single mother who barely eats so her child can be fed. That's honor right there. Joacquin may believe he lives in the "real world", but what it sounds to me like he's living in the the bottom of a pessimistic, negative hell -- I hope he gets out of it. The world has a lot of ugliness, but there is a lot of beauty, too.

 

Honour, right and wrong all exist only if you percieve them to. Honour is only good when it can be turned to an advantage, and that is when it exists for me

 

Honour?

Honour is defined by the moral of the majority
For some people it was honor to save the lives of the men in the WTC, for other people it was honour to push two planes into two skyscrapers.

There is no "just" moral therefor there shall be no "just" honour, oh and prove me that there is such a thing as selfless act

[ March 14, 2003, 16:00: Message edited by: Morgoth ]

 

I'm not sure that I could come up with any "proof" for you, Morgoth -- anyone can take any action and sneer at it, regardless of the context. Maybe faith in humanity as a whole is the bigger question here?

 

You should not have faith in anyone else, only yourself. Trust either.

But honor does exist. It does.

 

Sure does honour exist, but "true" honour is just as provable as a "true" religion and "true" morals

 

Yeah, as was stated, honour is something quite relative. You can honour someone or something through deeds that are all but honourable to the eyes of others. But that still doesn't take from the honour. Going further than that is impossible.

Many times I've known people who've done something stupid out of principle, because their honour demanded it. I can respect that, but it doesn't remove the fact that often it only gets them into more trouble and even if it doesn't, all others see is a moron acting all childish and stupid. But if it can be used in a group to get some results, then by all means it should. Anything to puff up the motivation.

The classical question is: Would you rather win with shame, or lose with honour? That sentence holds more meaning that first meets the eye.

 

Most of all it's in your approach to yourself. Taking or not taking offence and duelling mentality has not much to do with it, contrary to some opinions. I suppose for each person the definition is different if taken seriously. What's more no definition that could possibly be given is complete. What is or what is not honourable or what belongs to honour and what not is an arbitrary distinction. Of course honour itself it arbitrary and sense of honour even more. Maybe that why it's not in fashion now when you say 'I disagree' you are expected to add 'but I don't claim I'm objectively right either'.

 

I think all definitions of honour include the following concepts:
- Taking responsibility for the needs of yourself, all family members and loved ones, never leaving them to fend for themselves or to be protected/fed by outsiders.
- Fulfilling all responsibilities undertaken, whether your circumstances have changed since you undertook them or not.
- Never breaking any form of promise or vow, no matter what.

Some cultures add features like chastity, temperance, providing aid to strangers no matter the risk to oneself, returning all favours or gifts in kind etc. But I don't think they're intrinsic to the concept of honour as not all cultures or philosophies incorporate them. I wouldn't add any of those latter three to my own definition (Lord, give me chastity and temperance someday, but not yet. ) For me, those ideas upgrade a person from "honourable" to "saintly".

 

Thesis:
Honor is not obtained by what you have achieved, but by what you were willing to sacrifice.

 

The 9-11 attack was not an honorable actoin in any way. Honorable intentions and honorable acts are not the same. An act can only be deemed honorable after the ramifications of the act are considered. There are many instances when actions that lead to the harm of innocents were honorable, but only when a greater good was done. The 9-11 attacks have not resulted in a single positive. The lives and emotions of 100,000 of thousands of Americans were harmed, and none of the people that the terrorists claim to represent received any benefit. The harm that the terrorist brought down on the US was only amplified back at the expense of many more Afghans.

Honorable actions many times require sacrifice, but the overall benefit must be greater than what was sacrificed for the act to be considered honorable. Many honorable intentions turn into dis-honorable acts.

 

In your eyes Darkwolf...

 

That's good stuff, Sprite! I think honesty is a major component of honor -- do you do what you say you will do? Does your behaviour tend to improve the lives of those around you? By those definitions, honor does exist. I agree that by any Western standard, 9/11 was not honorable, as the attack did not follow our standards of decency -- declaring war before the attack. Many Islamics, though, would see the attack as something that was done for Islamic glory.

 

Well Darkwolf everyone has a different honor understanding for example for Usama it can be ramming a 747 into twin towers(well it is Usama we're talking about,Khelben slaps Usama around a bit with a large c**k,he also does something else but this is not the place for it )But for Student Jack it can be not giving friends away.
Let's not turn topic into something different....
Ok for me honor really exists.But not all honarable acts require sacrifice,some need faith in your friends,some need lack of something so that you can sacrifice something or you can just acrifice something(now what the heck i'm talking about ).
Damn let's say that honor exists.

Depaara:I am Müslim and i don't see that as an "Islamic Glory" i see it as a shame,for justice must be done and terror must be ended.

EDIT: Khelben saw "many" part new

 

Khelben, that's why I said "many" and not "all"; I have the highest respect for peaceful followers of Islam (some of my best friends in school were Pakistani Muslims) but I have no respect for murderers, be they Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, capitalist, fascist or communist.

 

Honor is to one what betrayal is to another

 

I beg to differ. Sometimes honour prevents one from keeping some promise. It's then that honour prevails or not over one's vanity and desire for good reputation. If you promise something in advance in good faith and it turns out the deed will be evil is a perfect example of that.

Anyway, I agree it's about duty, responsibility, reliability and embracing the consequences of one's action.

And you needn't be saintly to be honourable. I'm a perfect example of that

 

If someone as negative and nihilistic and world-hating (Sorry!) as Eze can believe in honor, then honor has hope...

I do believe in honor. I waited for other replies before mine so that mine would not be one to be argued against, but there would be a base of comments... or something like that. Whatever.

In my eyes, honor is being true to yoneself, no matter the circumstances. Honor is not an unbreakable boulder, it is a wisp of a willow.
One might think that this stands against the principals og honor, but the important thing id the core of one's belief's... the core of oneself. It means that one will be ready to step forward to defend his beliefs... but also it means that one knows that he does not dishonor himself wen he does not blindly attack a superior force in the name of honor.
Am I making sense? Probably not. It's late.
Honor is something that cannot be measured on the outside. There are different types of honor. Honesty ia just one kind of honor. *shakes her head* What a fool was I to start this topic when I have no idea of this myself!

Actually, maybe that's why I started this... to GET an idea of conseptualizing honor myself. I believe in it, but I cannot express it in words.

(There, there, Elrond... Feel better? I am sure we can get you a new pair of heels...)

 

Honor is doing what you believe is right. And standing by it.

Because we perceive defending our families, making sacrifices, and keeping oaths, we believe that is honor. And if you do that stuff, then you are considered honorable to society.

But things can get twisted. Let's say that you're fighting in Afghanistan and meet Osama bin Laden. He runs away, but his two cronies attack you. You kill one, but then you're shot. So are you honorable because you risked your life against terrorism?

Now let's reverse things. You are a loyal follower of Islam, and truly believe that when you fight the West, you are fighting Satan. You are prepared to defend the Muslim way of life, and eventually you are shot down by an American soldier while defending bin Laden.

So who is honorable here? The first gave his life to fight terror. The second gave his life to fight Satan (or his perception of him). So honor can be subjective. But the idea is that your remain loyal to it, despite the circumstances.