How could arcane casters be better tanks than fighters

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How could arcane casters be better tanks than fighters in this game....

 

Because it's D&D, so the power of casters grows exponentially and the power of mundanes grows linearly.

 

In IWD2 magic is a lot more powerful then melee, especially when compared to other infinity engine games. There's less enemies that are immune to it (IWD2 features a ton of enemies with some kind of phsical resistance) and enemy spell casters are also a lot less common, the ones you do meet are often easily dispatched.
That's why it's preferable to mix your melee classes with some arcane casting. You also gain protective spells that add to your ability to mitigate damage.
buffing yourself with Stoneskin, Mirror Image, Shield, and Improved Invisibility (just to name a few) before going into battle really allows your character to take a hell of a beating.

For normal mode, going pure melee tank is no problem at all - as long as you have some spell casters and/or ranged characters to back them up.
In Heart of Fury mode however, a melee tank will drop in no time, even if they have 30 AC and 500 HP - whereas summoned creatures can tank for days. (Boneguards FTW)
Additionally, with all the physical resistances enemies have, you'll notice your melee toon will hardly put out any damage. This opposed to an arcane caster who can pretty much mop up the floor with a group of enemies by strategic use of Wail of the Banshee, Finger of Death and Disintegrate.

It is possible to run a tanky melee character in HoF though, there's some variations of character builds that raise their AC to astronomical levels (think 70+) usually a deep gnome monk/thief with arcane levels mixed in to be able to cast Tenser's Transformation.

Melee tanks have their place in the game during normal mode, though only during the first 5-10 levels of content or so.
If you were running a party of 6 casters, you'd have a hard time getting through the start of the game up until shaenegarne bridge, since casters take a while to come into their own.

 

As xosmi said, with a noteworthy addition:
Baldur's Gate 2, a spellcaster spots you, spell trigger pops with a powerful Dispel Magic. Then he'll cast Dispel. Then his Contingency will cast it again. There are even special spell removal spells (Warding Whip, Ruby Ray, True Sight), in case Dispel doesn't do the trick. Why even try? Buffs are wasted effort. Chances are enemy casters have them all ready to cast if needed. Casters are villains in BG2, while the heroes have a whole collection of OP items to hoard, which aids their physical attacks.

Now in ID2, enemy casters are few and far between, they cast Dispel very infrequently, and the majority of enemies are physically strong. OF COURSE spellcasting is the solution. Buffs are worth casting. Area effects actually have an effect on battles. Spellcasters are the heroes here.

Heart of Fury changes the dynamic slightly, by making a lot of direct damage spells insufficient to beat the beefed up enemies. Buffs remain valuable however, and they serve very well in amplifying the effects of your melee. Battleclerics are the best in this game, and I enjoy the tactics way more than BG2. I just wish it had as much storyline, as big a world to explore, and as many fan-made mods.

 

I've almost never had my buffs removed by enemy spellcasters in vanilla. It's not like you just walk into a group of enemy spellcasters and wait for them to debuff you.

It's only even remotely challenging to play a spellcaster if you're using mods like SCS or if you're soloing.

 

In BG2, I've had quite a few spellcasters remove my magical defenses and spell protections against their own spells in BG2 so they can hit me with confusion, power word:stun, and other disablers, but they rarely use dispel magic to remove my buffs.
At least in vanilla.
In IWD2, they almost never even do that much.

 

Arcane casters have three major upsides in tank duty: Shield (the 1st level spell) is better than any physical armor in the entire game, Mirror Image is effectively an improved version of BG2's Stoneskin since it also blocks damaging spells and Tenser's Transformation rivals Battlecleric's Holy Power.

I mean, besides the obvious benefits of being able to use stuff like Sunfire to its fullest potential.

 

Clerics beat arcane by the Heal spell, if all defenses fail. It casts instantly, effectively giving you another "life" before you are down. It can't be dispelled or even disrupted.
The power of that sorcerer is the cleric healing it from behind.

 

True, but one Heal isn't likely going to save the day if your defenses are down to the point of actually needing one. Mirror image casts just as fast and gives you protection from up to 8 crits.. Which the HOF monsters seem to be scoring at alarming rate. Wonder if they have a luck bonus?

Besides, Heal isn't caster only - your arcane tank can use both lines of defense while the Battleclerics can't.

 

Oll Korrekt. There are however a number of buffs that make clerics very competitive, especially in HoF where they far outpace other casters. Summons deserve a mention at least. And it's the febuffs that really do the trick. Most cleric debuffs, even low level ones, have no saving throw. Spell Resistance must still be contended with, of course. But their powerful combat buffs, also many of which are caster-only, make them absolutely vital for HoF.
Build optimixation goes better with a cleric, too, because of armor. Most casters who alternate with combat, make use of STR, DEX, CON and caster stat. Mages will not have enough stats to max out all 4 on creation, and will have to choose a suboptimal life stat, often neglecting STR, traditionally. For clerics, DEX is the easy choice, because heavy armors don't allow much bonus.
Even better, since few cleric spells involve saving throws, it is easily possible to leave WIS at 18 and focus on a life stat like CON at level ups. It doesn't affect spell duration, magic resistance penetration or other spell potency modifiers, because they are all derived from caster level, not spell DC.

 

Mirror image is powerful, but so many enemy mages use True Sight in BG2 to seriously nerf it and all other illusions. There is a reason that there is a high material component cost for True Sight and Stoneskin in P&P. True Sight totally counters an illusionist, hence the reason for needing to sacrifice a valuable gem to use it.
I forgot what the cost for stoneskin was (it's been half a lifetime since I played P&P), but it too was expensive to use.
Improved invisibility and the related shadow door are extremely powerful in P&P.

P.S. are the above statements about material components still true in 3rd edition? I only know 2nd for P&P. IIRC the material components are optional rules for the spells with trivial costs, but I believe they are mandatory for the spells with serious costs.

 

According to the SRD, in 3.5th edition the component costs equal 250 Gold for both Stoneskin and True Seeing.

I don't actually own any of the 3rd edition books, so i couldn't tell you if the SRD is correct though.
I do know that in 5th edition, the component costs for true seeing cost only 25 Gold, and those for stoneskin are 100 Gold.

 

Coin, a wizard in tank duty can easily neglect both WIS and CHA, (nearly) maxing the four other stats, just as a Battlecleric can. Sorcerer is a bit tougher, mainly due to Deep Gnomes CHA penalty, but doable.

Clerical debuffs and summons are powerful tools indeed, but since none of them are caster only effects, this has no bearing on who should take on tank duties. Banites with a splash of Monk get to stupid high AC, but apart from the total immunity to ranged attacks provided by Divine Shell, that's about all there is in terms of tank-specific tools. Armor of Faith is too minor to count.

Actual armor is a non-issue for a tank as well: you either combine a suitable robe with Shield (arcane), or go armorless (Monk WIS bonus) and rely upon Spirit armor. At the very least, you absolutely must not disable Evasion by wearing anything heavier than Studded Leather. Even off-tanks rather enjoy a side effect such as Zuvembie's Death Ward instead of a meaningless AC bonus in HOF mode.

 

Non-caster stats aren't an issue. Most characters can max out 3 of the 6 stats, and put what's left into a 4th. With clerics, the 4th stat can be DEX with very little disadvantage (AC being more important than reflex or ranged attack bonus). Mages without armor have to choose their poison; either limit their STR, DEX or CON, with all the drawbacks intact.
I personally prefer Mage Armor over Shield because it can be cast on others and it lasts much longer, though I know it's not as high an AC bonus.

The alternatives to armor are limited. There are some good ones, but the more non-armor users there are in your party, the weaker the options get. With a 6 party all-caster team, I'm very happy my clerics can make use of the conventional AC bonus from armor.

 

Material components are never optional, it's just that all components with negligible costs are supposed to be contained in the spell component pouch. Stoneskin and true seeing both have a 250 gp material component in 3.X (although there are ways around those for system-savvy players). That and the fact that it's fairly easy to dispel them makes them less than worthwhile in many cases.

That said, adding a gold price to the spells wouldn't matter in the slightest in IE games. You're basically swimming in gold in every single one of them.

 

Coin, my max STR/DEX/INT and almost max CON (14 to be exact) Rogue/Wizard tanks beg to differ. Sure, it's 4 points below max but so are all other Deep Gnome builds due to their 74 total stat points instead of 76 like many other races.

Once again, you're mixing up tank duties with the activities of a whole party. You can only ever have two real tanks in HOF mode, the rest of them might as well be nude for all intents and purposes, they're still "tanking" just as badly if they happen to aggro something that they shouldn't have. Hence, the availability of robes is a moot point - you only ever need one, MAYBE two if you're hell-bent on making both of your tanks arcane-heavy builds.

Then again, I wouldn't use Deep Gnomes in any other role besides just tanking. Drow has much better racial bonus for both Battlecleric and arcane-based dps builds, and Humans can both tank INT and still get to elemental casting feats and utilize all sorts of mix-ins with impunity.

 

I prepare all my party members for the likelihood of melee, due to the many closed quarters, ambushes and awful in-game pathfinding. They can all tank, just some are better at it than others.

 

Now that's something else again. My non-tanks end up grabbing aggro at times, it happens. Just that ANY dps character is already just as prepared for occasional melee as you can (ie. maxed CON and STR) without really sacrificing anything for it. Yes, including casters - what ELSE are they going to do with their stat points if AC doesn't matter anyway?

An arcane caster without AC is still the king of the heap in terms of survival - it's not like there are so many _other_ uses for the 2nd level spell slots besides Mirror Image once you have your entire party covered in Cat's Grace. Those 8 illusionary copies are easily worth 200-300 HP so not even the low class HP is an issue.

 

I have the habit of trying to make my spellbook last as long as possible, as if it's a race against the clock. I do all sidequests, but I pause at every opportunity, and try to make my hour/level buffs last as long as possible. I rest 5 times at most during the game. Resting is an arduous task because I'm a perfectionist when it comes to spell picks.

As a result, most of my level 2 spells are Cat's Grace, with usually just 2 or 3 Mirror Images that I am reluctant to cast for anything but a boss fight.

Every encounter is planned meticulously, with the expectation that it will be a mess after just a few rounds. I cast interference where it is strong, use ranged where it is effective, and switch to melee when I have the upper hand. Mods and new items are involved, so I have no achievement to brag about, other than that the tactics are why I love this game.

Stoneskin, Ironskins and MI are powerful, but MI and Ironskins affect caster only. Enemy AI will target other characters, too. I'm unsure if they intentionally avoid the most buffed units. But a single summon can serve as a better deterrent than buffs, because enemies appear to prioritize them.

 

So you guys don't find web and blur useful? Blur doubles the effectiveness of mirror image by introducing the miss chance, preventing an image from being expended.
Web is a good disabler for breaking up mobs, even in late game, and means that the rest of the party who isn't engaged in melee can take pot shots at the webbed enemies with ranged weapons for automatic hits. Granted, it isn't as good as in Baldur's Gate (where I use it even in ToB), but web is still useful.
While Blindness can be a good disabler too, allowing you to render archers or casters harmless as you pick them off with ranged weapons, the enemies make their saves a bit too often for me to use it.

Another thing to point out, since this thread is about arcane casters being better tanks, Ghoul Touch is a great spell if you are mixing it up in melee anyways. Enemies seem to rarely make their saves with that.

Decastave can also help if you frequently need to recover HP, but I find it is rarely worth the slot.

If you are making the arcane caster a tank, you really should consider some of the other touch-based spells that are normally ignored. Some are really powerful since you've taken care of the main drawback by being a tank.