how different is IWD 2 and IWD1?

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Sorry, I know this is a really vague question but...I want to use the same characters I created in IWD1 in IWD2. But if I do so, is it going to be like playing IWD1 all over again? i.e. same spells, abilities, etc? or is the 2.5 rule system in IWD2 different enough that it will still be fresh even if i play it with the same characters?

thanks
jim

 

It's 3.5 and it's quite different. Play a Dwarf Paladin or a half-orc Cleric/Monk/Barbarian. Just about anything you can dream up.

 

It is quite different indeed. I do not think game really uses 3,5 E though, was 3,5 E published when the game was developed? It uses a basic version of 3E rules. And they are vastly different from 2E rules. They offer more flexibility at the cost of more complexity.

Truly, I was scared at the character creatin screen first time, so many feats and skills to choose from, and if you do not know the game rules, or how they are implemented in to the game, chances are high that you will have lots of wrong decisions.

A few major differences in 3E rules and IWD2:

-Now all races can play all classes! Each class can use all weapons and armors, however if they do not have the feat (akaroficiency) for it, there will be heavy penalties. And mages have a chance of casting failure when wearing an armor.

-You get to choose a new class each time you level up, you can continue up leveling in your current class, or choose another class to advance. However, if you do not have a favoured class of yoru race, you may suffer XP penalties.

-Saving throws are now Fortitude, Reflex and Will, and it depends on your class AND ability scores.

-THAC0 is gone, now you have BAB (base attack bonus) the higher the better, AC is also the higher the better now.

-You now have yummy skill points, from bluffing to arcane lore, from brewing and identifying potions to sneaking, etc. Your class and INT score determines your advancement in skills.

-You can also have feats at some levels, they add bonuses and special abilites to your character!

-At every lvl divisible by four, you get an ability score bonus! Woot!

-You can now play drows, duergars, half-orcs, svirfneblins and they are indeed fun to play!

You can form your old IWD 1 party, roughly, but I reccomend throwing in a few drows, deep gnomes etc. for increased fun! Also, try a monk or sorcerer, they are fun too!

All in all, I reccomend IWD2 to a IWD1 player. The story has some connection to IWD1, and you re-visit some old areas from IWD1 for that fuzzy nostalgic feeling, it feels great!

 

Silverstar gave a great outline of IWD2. Let me just add this.

IWD2 takes place about 30 or so years after IWD1. The events of IWD1 are part of the history and legend for the PCs and the NPCs whom you encounter. And those events play a significant part of the events that are the story of IWD2.

 

Let me chime in:

As Silverstar said you get to choose a new class every time you level up, giving you the possibilities of some very versatile PC's.

But sticking to a single class also have its advantages. Single class paladins, clerics, monks and druids, for example, can be very powerful.

 

True about pure classes. And Feats allow you to customize a single-classed character, making things like an armor-wearing mage or Greatsword-wielding rogue possible.

 

IWD1 was a real gem. IWD2 isn`t. The pure lameness of the 3 ed rules completely ruined it. Also it made the game rediclously easy. You get twice the amount of HP than in the first for instance. And insane high AC bonuses. The skillpoints were pretty much useless. Except for alchemy (at 1-2 points) And the wilderness lore skill. They could have left the skills out of the game really. It didn`t add anything to this particular game at all. Both games, however, are mostly just hack and slash. Defeat enemies from point A to point B. Then return to point A for xp.

 

That is definitely a matter of opinion.

 

Indeed. Some people just hate the 3e rules. Frankly, I think that it is singularly wrong to blame BIS for creating IWD2 according to the 3e rules, since IMHO, it was probably required by WOTC at that time. Does anyone seriously think that WOTC would let BIS make a 2e game at the same time that they were trying to see their 3e products. Puh-leeeze.

Mind you, I'm not saying that the 3e rules are perfect. Not hardly. But the 2e rules are hardly perfect either.


Rawgrim, I enjoy using stealthy characters, so obviously the stealth skill come into play quite a bit when I play. I'll agree that traps aren't dangerous enough to really concern players. But who knows, maybe someone will write a mod that will make traps a lot nastier. (wink, wink)

Also remember that BIS is making these games for a wider target audience than simply experienced RPG gamers. That tends to mean that the games may seem a bit easier to the experienced D&D RPG/cRPG player, who knows how to get the most out of classes, spells, and has good tactics.

Do I wish that the IWD games had much less forced linearity? You betcha. I particularly dislike areas that feel a tunnel with only one way in and one way out.

But the problem with going for a less linear game makes it vastly more difficult to maintain the game's challenge if you cannot KNOW exactly who your PC's are going to be facing at each point in the plot.


It should also be noted that some of the things about BG2 that many people like are also things that other people may not like. For example, a lot of people really like the forced party NPCs, party dialogs, etc. in BG2. Other people don't want to be forced to play a party of 1 PC and 5 NPCs. Some people actually like creating an entire party of their own. Oh, sure, you could do that in BG2, but then you'd lose out on all those side quests that are linked to the NPCs.

I don't think that because IWD1/2 is different than BG1/2 that that makes one "bad" and the other "good". Each has its own good points and less than good points.

 

I agree with crucis.

Bear in mind that NWN1 was released same year with 3e rules also. Would have been a little bit odd if IWD2 was still hanging to 2e rules, wouldn't it?

I like IWD2. Good story, not so many sidequests as BG2 but enough. And if you don't have your tactics or strategies in place, or a poorly designed party, a lot of the battles will be very difficult IMHO.

Those who thinks IWD2 is a hack-and-slash RPG, has obviously not played Diablo or some of the clones. You can do some roleplay in IWD2

 

I agree with this statement.

For me two good things came out of IWD II, Sorcerers Place and Nakia.

The 3e rules didn't mean a thing to me but I didn't like the story. I wanted to change sides. The wilderness forest, Dragon's Eye and that time loop almost drove me crazy. I did like making up my own characters it was a fun change from BG II.

And all this proves is there is no perfect game and never will be because we each have our likes and dislikes.

 

IWD2 is surely not a pure-hack-slash game. Diablo is. In Diablo, you can not even answer back to NPCs talking to you, you just listen and listen and listen and go kill things and loot. (not that Diablo is a bad game, it is just not a 'R'PG.)

In IWD2, you have a chance to raise up your own ideas AND the dialogue options branch and differ vastly according to your sex, race, class, ability scores, skills, etc. This offers great chances of role-playing. You can roleplay a silver-tongued diplomat, or a brain-addled psycophat. There are some real gems to be found in dialogue options, and quite humorous lines and results as well.

Combat is the main strength of IWD2, true, and it is FUN nevertheless. For example, I think the IWD2 finale battle is the most proffesionaly done final battle in all IE games so far, OFCOURSE excluding mods, for they change lots of things. (for the better! )

There are good puzzle-like, mysterious stages which picked my interest seriously as well. Like some forest which people are lost in, or a cave without exit, the time-loop adventures, sneaking in some caverns, the whole final chapter really fascinates me, so many side quests, I even became and felt like a serious detective for some quests, so many possibilities, so many things to do and enjoy, etc.

Good and different battles are also abundant, for example, you try to defend a pallisade against an army, then you defend something even more important later in the game from even tougher attackers! (trying to keep it as low spoilerish as possible)

How can you say that
A-IWD2's combat is linear and boring!
OR
B-IWD2 only consists of battles and nothing more!

These are both false, IWD2 has awesome combat moments, and awesome puzzles, in-game quests, chances to role-play, or whatever you look for in a CRPG nowadays.

Ofcourse, I do like BG2 a bit better, BUT it is a personal preference. I still love IWD2 as it is the very first game that I played, and it taught me all about D&D and made me curious, willing to learn. If not this game, I would never look for BG2, I would never learn the rules of P&P D&D, I would never DM or play, heck I would not even be here posting these! So I will defend IWD2 to the last! No offense meant to anybody, ofcourse.

 

I strongly disagree with Rawgrim. The 3e rules, while not perfect, in my opinion are a significant improvement over 2e.

Ability scores are much better. Now, every increment of 2 has some effect on your PC. We no longer have that humongous range in the middle (7-14 or whatever, depending on the particular ability) of no effect on the PC. Moreover, every fourth level, your PC gets to raise one of his ability scores by one point.

Saving throws cleaned up. Shrunk from 5 to 3 types, in a logical and easy-to-understand format.

Armor class cleaned up. Before, you had to go to some cumbersome chart to determine whether or not a hit was made. Using the "to-hit" die roll, with the PC's modifiers, makes it much easier to understand. Also, the AC modifiers are easier to use, since modifiers of the same type (other than generic) do not stack.

Feats are a great enhancement to the game. It allows a greater opportunity to customize and create the character you want to play.

Multiclassing options are much better. You no longer have to take levels in all classes. You can select any multiclassing combination that you choose; it doesn't have to be "preapproved" by the game rules. You no longer are required to be of a certain race in order to take a given multiclassing combo.

While on the subject of race, IWD2 goes beyond the standard 3e rules and allows you to create PC's from the Forgotten Realms subraces, as outlined in the FR supplement. For example, if you want to be an elf, you can choose among moon elf, wild elf, or drow.

Skill points. Rawgrim belittles them, but it's one more aspect of the game that allows you to customize your PC. There are many skills that are useful to a given PC - searching for traps, removing traps, opening locks, etc. for rogues; concentration for spell caster; knowledge (arcana), alchemy, etc. for wizards.

In particular, the speaking skills (intimidate, bluff and diplomacy) are helpful for your characters that speak to NPC's, and thus assist in the "role-playing" aspect of the game. It does make a difference which conversation option you choose at a given time, and some options are only available to PC's with sufficient points in the relevant skill.

Ironically, Rawgrim cites "wilderness lore" as one of only two feats he found worthwhile. I'm glad he finds it useful, but the clear concensus among all of the online resources available for this game is that wilderness lore is the most useless skill in IWD2.

In short, to each his own. Rawgrim has his preference. I just thought you should get the other side of the story.

 

wow, thanks everyone. I'm really looking forward to playing this. I didn't realize it was so different from the first one. Seems like it's going to take quite a bit of thinking when making a character. Are there any web sites that contain tips on creating characters i.e. if you pick X class, don't pick a,b or c feats because it's counterproductive when you reach 5th level, etc. I would hate to create a character that has flaws which wouldn't be realized until it's too late in the game...

 

Oh, this is a perfectly good site for asking about how to build characters.

 

Try the guides on this site! I wouldn't recommend the "jupp" for anyone that haven't already played the game for some time. The "UPP" (ultimate powergaming party IIRC) OTOH is a great beginners guide to get some ideas on how to create good characters, but make sure you build a party you like and not only chars built only to be as effective as possible.

 

Heh, you may just create a party of your liking. I remember my very first party, I was so very foreign to the concept of D&D and roleplaying. I have a very crappy party. I portrayed my friends in real life as PCs, according to their personalities and habits.

Me-As a Silverstar of Selune
A Paladin of Mystra
A half-orc barbarian (sounded tough to me)
A rogue (I thought I would need one, thanks to info at party creating screen)
A necromancer
An illusionist (so that they can cast spells which other can not)

I kept them all as single classes, I had no idea about MCing and its rewards or dangers so I decided to keep things simple.

The party was sucky, even on easy difficulty I found the game hard, and I had no idea how to scribe spells to a mage's book till the near end of Goblin Fortress. That was a big discovery for me, my illusionist got fireball and my necro got skull trap and it was fun. I even later played HoF with this party too!

What I am trying to say is, just roll any characters you will like, and do not aim for power or usefulness for a first game. You can even try to build the best Powerplaying party later, there are some very freakish combos around, really.

 

If you've played IWD1 before and have a good idea of how to construct a party under 2e rules, party mixes under 3e aren't really so different. A fairly traditional party mix of a couple of melee warriors, a cleric, a mage, a rogue, and a utility player (pretty much anything you want; another tank, an archer, a druid, another mage, or no 6th character at all) will have no real problems in IWD2 so long as the characters are built decently.


What is different is how to actually build the characters themselves. Rather than constantly rolling for your stats, you get 16 points to spread amongst the 6 stats, with all 6 stats starting at 10.

You also need to be aware that armor works a little differently in 3e. Armor is now more than AC. It's a combination of a few stats, although the 2 primary ones are AC and MDB (Max DEX Bonus). Max DEX bonus is a stat that effectively tells you how flexible the armor is and statistically tells you how much of your DEX bonus you can add to your AC.

Heavy armor, like plate or split, will have a MDB of 0 or +1. Thus those fighters who end up wearing it won't need any DEX beyond 10 to 12.

Medium armor, chain mail and hide armor, have MDB's of +2 and +4. Medium is best suited for characters with medium-ish DEX who aren't going to rely on stealth or other rogue-ish DEX based skills.

And Light armor, leather and studded, have MDB's of +6 and +5 and is best suited to characters who have very high DEX's and who will be relying on their DEX based skills.

Also be aware that you will need to put more emphasis on giving your spellcasting characters very high stats in their spellcasting stat.

Spellcasting Stats:
Wizard: INT
Druid/Cleric: WIS
Bard/Sorceror: CHA
(Ranger/Paladin): WIS*

* I included Ranger and Paladin here only to give you their spellcasting stat. However, I would hardly call rangers and pallies "spellcasting" characters like the other classes.

The highest spell level that your character can cast is base on their spellcasting stat.

Highest spell level == Stat -10.

That is, if your cleric has a WIS of 16, the highest spell level that he could cast would be 6.

It is usually best to maximize the spellcasting stat for your spellcasting characters. The lone possible exception to this is bards. There are good reasons to max out a bard's CHA and good reasons to limit it to 14 (and put your regular stat bumps into CHA).


enuff for now.

 

Although the max dex bonus with heavy armor is +1 I don't recommend creating characters with 12 dex for using it, some feats (including the most useful one, rapid shot) require 13 dex. If you really don't have enough stat points for your build then lower dex to 8 or 10, you can reach 12 with the cat's grace spell.

One other difference to 2e is that multiclassing your casters will slow down their level progression seriously.
In IWD2 a fighter7/mage7 needs as many XP as a mage 14 while in IWD1 a fighter12/mage12 needs as many XP as a mage 14 for example.
Mixing levels can still make sense (like a rogue 1-3/transmuter x as backup caster who gets enough skill points to handle all the thieving skills), but keep at least one cleric and arcane caster pure.

The opposing schools for specialist mages in the manual are wrong, so better rely on the in-game description at creation to avoid unpleasant surprises.
Diviner is imho the best choice for a main caster unless you prefer sorcerers.

You should also know that the "improved iniative" feat doesn't work and barbarian rage doesn't stack with bull's strength.

I recommend avoiding level-squatting or other game mechanics abuses, the game is easy enough without this kind of cheating.

Without cheating your average party level will be between 16 and 17 at the end of the game, so be sceptic about mixes which require 30 character levels to be effective.
And don't bother about HoF mode at creation, it will be easier than the first chapter in normal mode even without a powergaming party.

 

thanks for the info guys, i'm definitely gonna use this post as a reference when I create characters!