How Many 72 AC Characters are Possible? (no cheats)

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Here's a good mental exercise:

How large of a party could you have if the requirement was that by the time they reach level 32 they must all be able to have 72 AC at the same time? It doesn't matter if all of the characters are carbon copies, have horrible EXP penalties, or take two hours to fully buff up. However, there can be no cheating, such as duplicating unique items, external character editing, etc. Also this cannot include unique circumstances that aren't repeatable. They all have to be able to reach 72 AC on a consistent basis, at least as often as right after a full rest, in any given location in the game.

As a follow-up question:

Could you get a larger number of 72 AC members if 1 member of the party was allowed to be exempt from the 72 AC requirement?

Yeah, I know that this looks like a lazy way to find the answer, but I haven't played the game all the way thru, so there's some information that I just don't know. For instance, I don't know which items are unique, which class-quest rewards can only be given to one member of the party, nor the availability of various ability-boosting potions, tomes, etc. Basically I can only guess based on standard abilities, leveling bonuses, and spells. Hey, that sounds like a pretty good third question:

What AC-boosting (directly or indirectly) items, quest-rewards, or consumables are unique or can only ever be used by one character? Thus, if I can only buy one Crow's Nest or if a party of six Clerics of Bane can only get one Bile of the Damned amulet, that would be good to know.

[ May 27, 2007, 02:37: Message edited by: Tartan ]

 

generally anything with a name, can only be gotten twice, once in normal (weak version) and once in HoF (stronger version). the more times you play, the more of 'em you can get though

im 99% certain that 6 Banites still only get 1 quest reward, similarly, 6 pallys still only get one holy sword (darn, cant believe i cant remember its name)

also, im not at all decent on making characters, but my assumption is that anything that spends all its effort on AC will have a difficult time doing any damage in a mildly balanced world (unless it can summon or has good AoE spells as well, but if thats the case AC is almost a moot point )

 

Are you thinking of this as just a mental exercise or something to actually implement? The problem with implementation is that, as MC said, the PCs with AC 72 will not be good at anything but being fodder. With only one such PC that's not a problem, as the other five (or 3, or whatever) can blast the monsters to pieces while they try (and fail) to hit the fodder. If you turn your entire party into fodders though, there will be no one left to actually do any damage. Great when you have to avoid combat (just waltz through), not so for the fights you cannot avoid.

That said, I don't even think it's possible to get more than one PC to AC 72. I've never tried it, but looking at the way the UPP FAQs do it, that one PC gets almost every AC-enhancing item in the game, and even with that still has to rely on spells to reach 72.

The pally sword is Cera Sumat by the way

 

"Are you thinking of this as just a mental exercise or something to actually implement?"

Purely as a mental exercise. While not totally unplayable, this kind of group would probably be too slow and repetitive to be much fun to play. Really, I'm just curious.

"That said, I don't even think it's possible to get more than one PC to AC 72."

Jukka's UPP (JUPP) has an "Untouchable Duo" where both members reach 72 AC (iirc) and silverdragon72's guide on GameBanshee's forum shows how to get up to 80 AC or beyond (with only 8 AC coming from items), so it seems pretty plausible that you could get more than two characters to 72 AC. Aside from that, I've seen numerous posts of people claiming to reach 72 AC without the use of X, Y, or Z...so it only stands to reason that if you took advantage of every possible AC boost in the game that you could spread the love around and have a larger number of characters with 72 AC.

 

I'm almost sure you could build all 6 chars with an AC of at least 72. The problems are that you can only achieve this for a really short time and all of them won't have it until very late in HOF. They will also be quite bad at most other things.

According to jukkas guide you can reach AC=87 (BTW. a miss since you could replace 10 of his banite-lvls for monk-lvls and use ghost armor for deflection for an AC of 88) and 11 of these AC-points come from equipment. These and the normal mode versions of them should probably be split up between the 6 in the party, the best of them to the ones that has to take bard or druid lvls (for the song and barkskin.) You'll also miss out the net bonus of 1 since you only have 2 potions of Holy Transference and a little more with only 2 every god rings. The slippers that gives dex aren't important since Tenser's Transformation gives a good dex-bonus.
These minuses should still make you able to reach over 72 with them all!

 

SPOILERS BELOW

EDIT: My original post was incorrect.

You can have a total of two AC 72 characters, I believe. It's possible to get another 1 or two really close though.

There are two concrete ways to make a decoy: High WIS (Cleric of Bane, Potion of Holy Transference X2, Every God Ring, increase WIS every time, start with max. DEX and WIS), and the high DEX decoy (Deep Gnome, increase DEX every chance, +4 AC shield, Drakka's Chainmail, Expertise feat).

Both decoys need Dodge. Both decoys need an amulet (either the Flame Dance Talisman or the Sunfire Talisman (HoF)). Since there are only two amulets, that's what leads me to believe that you can only have two decoys. BTW, you also need a Druid (at least 12 levels for Barkskin) and a Bard (at least 11 levels for War Chant of the Sith).

There are other ways on how to build an effective decoy near the end of Jukka's Ultimate Powergaming Guide. The above characters are also detailed there. He's got a great section near the end where he details how to make your own decoy.

Here's the decoy I'm using (and loving!). I'm near the end of regular mode, and routinely get to a low 50's AC when buffed:

Deep Gnome
Paladin 3/Fighter 4/Rogue 3/ Illusionist 6 (eventually will be 20).
STR: 16 DEX: 24 CON: 14 INT: 18 WIS: 7 CHA: 1 (I hate myself for playing a Paladin with a 1 CHA, but I am powergaming, and really thought the Paladin quest reward, and the ability to use the best 1-handed weapon in the game were worth it, otherwise I might have gone for Barbarian for more HP and speed).

The important feats are Dodge, Expertise, and *** in Large Sword. From what I've read about decoys, he deals out a decent amount of damage, and even more when buffed!

[ May 28, 2007, 12:03: Message edited by: Taluntain ]

 

Interesting. I didn't think getting two or more PCs to 72 was possible (my memory must be going, or Jukka updated his guide since I last read it).

That said it's pretty easy to get all the party to 72 if you shamelessly exploit engine loopholes. An entire party of bards abusing Lingering Song makes it a joke to get to ACs above 100 for everyone, though I believe that would be blatant cheating.

 

I actually figured a way to get a 3rd and 4th AC 72 character.

#3 is a Deep Gnome Illusionist 10/Monk1/Cleric of Bane19. I'd suggest not adding that Monk level until you hit HoF mode, and keeping him in the back ranks as long as possible.

This character would have a large strain on stats, and would need a 20 WIS, 20 DEX and (at least) a 13 INT (for expertise). With Expertise maxxed out, and assuming you increase WIS at every opportunity, you can reach 72 AC.

A Deep Gnome Monk 30 might be able to reach AC 72 (I'm actually not positive here).

Pair these two with the DEX Deep Gnome I detailed above and the JUPP Deep Gnome Cleric 28/Monk1/Rogue1, and there are your 4 decoys (I am convinced decoy #3 is the weakest of the bunch though).

You'll still need at least 12 levels of Druid (preferably more for a longer lasting Barkskin) somewhere and 11 levels of Bard. A high level Sorcerer would really help too for long lasting buffs (Ghost Armor, Spirit Armor, Cat's Grace).

Damn, I'm so close to finishing and now I want to try this group out! Having so many decoys (with said Bard, Druid, and Sorcerer -- in two characters hiding in the middle) would be a ton of fun!

EDIT:

After testing this, I was wrong. There are only two Gauntlets (Indomitable Bands/Brazen Bands) and two sets of headgear (Crow's Nest, Swing from the Masts) and you need them all for AC 72. You can get two others pretty close, but not close enough.

Still, the 4 proposed decoys could handle a lot of the other tasks in the game and are still good characters, it's just that some enemies will hit you HARD in HoF. It's not worth it though, IMHO, because it's tough enough keeping 2 characters buffed up. 4 would be really hard, and probably cause too many headaches.

[ May 31, 2007, 01:18: Message edited by: Klorox ]

 

Great work Klorox. Even if those two didn't quite hit 72 we can see how close they get. All very informative.

 

I'm waffling more than Al Gore on this one, but I (again) think it might be possible to have 3.

You need the first two melee decoys described in Jukka's guide, and a modified version of the decoy in his arcane party (the only modification really needed is changing him to LN, choosing the Bane Cleric class, and dropping the Paladin class). His character here doesn't work, because you can't be good to use the Xvaim Dagger of Despair, which you need to cast arcane spells of a high level.

His suggested starting stats are fine though, but they look like they'd be frustrating to play (6 STR, 11 CON in a decoy? 1 hit and he'd probably die, especially since 20 levels are Illusionist!). BTW, the Sorcerer isn't needed, and I might add in 2 Cleric levels since your WIS will be really high (Every God's Ring, Banite bonuses)


In addition to the noted Bard (11 -- War Chant of the Sith), Druid (12 -- Barkskin), and sorcerer (Cat's Grace, Ghost Armor, Spirit Armor) (although the other spellcasters can get this spell, they can't use it after Tenser's Transformation is cast), you also need a Cleric of Helm (for their special ability). The higher the level the better on all of these extra classes, except for Bard, where you may as well stay at 11.

 

Final addition, I was wrong again!

I figured out how to get a 3rd decoy, but I really don't think he's worth the trouble.

Here he is:

LN Deep Gnome
S 8 D 20 C 11 I 14 W 20 Ch 1
Transmuter 14/ Dreadmaster of Bane 15/Monk 1 (take Monk level only after buying second Every God's Ring in HoF) (start as a Transmuter for the free spells, maximize Alchemy for later)

Equipment needed:
Xvimian Fang of Despair
Every God's Ring

Spells needed (cast either by him or other team members):
Barkskin
Haste (or Mass Haste)
Ghost Armor
Spirit Armor
Draw Upon Holy Might
Divine Shell
Tenser's Transformation
Cat's Grace

Feats needed:
Expertise
Dodge

Boost both DEX and WIS, leaving WIS at an odd number (since Every God's Ring gives +5 to WIS). The early DEX boosts should help AC, and in combat (early game, he uses missile weapons and Weapon Finesse if in melee).

You need a Watcher of Helm in the party, a Druid (12 levels for Barkskin) and a Bard (11 levels for War Chant of the Sith).

 

Now this is why I love the Internet - you think you've managed to attain the ultimate, and just around the corner comes someone and improves on your design. Good catch on that AC88, Mudde!

Yeah, two high-AC characters is the reasonable maximum, just because there's just two of each of the AC-boosting items. A fully boosted Monk(1)/Rogue(1)/Banite(x)/Wizard(x) gets to mid-80's so they should be able to get to 72 without any of such items, but as has been said, keeping them buffed becomes tedious at best, horrible at worst.

In the party I'm playing as now, I decided to demote the Monk/Rogue/Banite(x) from "so-and-so tank" to "pure decoy/spellcaster" and transferred stats from STR to INT to further increase AC and in turn, giving the best AC items to my main tank instead. It always felt wastefull to have just one character try to shoulder ALL the major responsibilities - debuffing, tanking, dealing damage and healing. With (ultimately) WIS 40 to back up her entire spellbook, I might as well spew out spells the entire time the rest of the party mops up and still not run out of spells.

Nevertheless, a character with 70+ AC doesn't HAVE to be a decoy, take the Rogue(3)/Fighter(4)/Pally(3)/Illusionist(20) as an example. IMPORTANT NOTE is that both DEX and STR boost attained from Tenser's Transformation STACKS with everything else - so it's possible to get +16 STR from spell buffs alone. It's not always the highest base STR that counts.

 

Ooooh! I didn't know tensers stacked on top of other STR bonuses... good thing to know though!

 

I've got a party that has 5 Characters with 72 armor. You can probably even get to 6, since I didn't stack Tenser's with Cat's Grace. Also, this rely's on getting perfect Tenser's Transformations for 2 characters. I'm only using 2 Tenser's because I'm not certain you can get more than 2 scrolls of it. (Assuming 1 in normal, 1 in HoF)

This party also requires:
2 Every God's Ring (Norm HoF)
Normal + HoF Chimandrae's Slippers
Normal + HoF Crow's Nest
Normal + HoF Sunfire Talisman
Normal Xvimian Dagger
Bile of the Damned
Hof+Normal Brazen Bands
Intriguing School Cap

It should be noted, this party will only have 72 armor for about 1 turn, since I'm using Helm's Watch. But it's technically not cheating right [Big Grin] ?

The math is included, so if I've made a mistake, please let me know.

EDIT: Klorox found a mistake w/ my paladin using a Xvimian dagger. Fix some class typos too. This should still work. It needs an Intriguing School Cap, which I'm not sure where it drops, but should still be valid. Hoping its not a random drop.

Also, this team is almost COMPLETELY UNPLAYABLE. There's huge experience penalties. There's no damage. Almost no healing. Realistically, 2 solid armor class characters is the max for feasibility. There shouldn't be a need for more than 2 anyways.

Here's the Party, 5 72 AC characters, plus 1 bard/druid:
---------------------
FILLER CHARACTER
11 Bard
13 Druid
6 Watcher of Helm

#1
Character
Deep Gnome
15 Monk
1 Helm
14 Wizard
Str 10
Dex 18+6+8 (Lvl+Tenser's)
Con 10
Int 15+2 Xvimian
Wis 20+1+5 (LvL+Every God's)
Cha 1

10 - Base
4 - Race
3 - Monk
1 - Dodge Feat
11 - Dex
8 - Wis
5 - Expertise
27 - Spells (Shield 7, Ghost Armor 5, Bark skin 5, Haste 4, 2 Helm,4 Tenser's)
1 - Sunfire Normal
2 - Bard song
72 AC

#2
Deep Gnome
26 Monk
2 Watcher of Helm
1 Wizard
1 Rogue
Str 10+2
Dex 20+7+5 (Lvl+Slippers)
Con 10
Int 13
Wis 20
Cha 1

10 - Base
4 - Race
5 - Monk
1 - Dodge Feat
11 - Dex
5 - Wis
5 - Expertise
23 - Spells (Shield 7, Ghost Armor 5, Bark skin 5, Haste 4, 2 Helm's Watch)
6 - Sunfire HoF + Crow's HoF
2 - Bard song
72 AC

#3
Deep Gnome
27 Monk
1 Rogue
2 Wizard
Str 10
Dex 20+7+5 (Level+Slipper)
Con 10
Int 13
Wis 20
Cha 1

10 - Base
4 - Race
5 - Monk
1 - Dodge Feat
11 - Dex
5 - Wis
5 - Expertise
23 - Spells (Shield 7, Ghost Armor 5, Bark skin 5, Haste 4, Helm's Watch 2)
6 - InDominatable+Norm Crow's
2 - Bard song
72 AC


#4
Deep Gnome
15 Monk
1 Paladin
14 Wizard
Str 10+2 Pal
Dex 20+6+8 (Level+Tenser's)
Con 10
Int 14+3 (Intriguing School Cap)
Wis 19+2+1+5 Pal+Lvl+EveryGod's
Cha 1

10 - Base
4 - Race
3 - Monk
1 - Dodge Feat
12 - Dex
8 - Wis
5 - Expertise
27 - Spells (Shield 7, Ghost Armor 5, Bark skin 5, Haste 4, 2 Helm, 4 Tenser's)
2 - Bard song
72 AC

#5
Deep Gnome
28 Monk
1 Banite
1 Wizard
Str 10
Dex 20+7+1-2 (Level+Bard's Ring-Pot)
Con 10
Int 13
Wis 20+4+4+4 Banite+Potion+Bile of the Damned
Cha 1

10 - Base
4 - Race
5 - Monk
1 - Dodge Feat
8 - Dex
11 - Wis
5 - Expertise
21 - Spells (Shield 7, Ghost Armor 5, Bark skin 5, Haste 4)
5 - Brazen
2 - Bard song
72 AC

[ June 20, 2007, 06:08: Message edited by: DrEm314 ]

 

Wow, great work DrEm314!

I only found one minor problem: Character 4 has Paladin levels (must be LG) and is using the Xvimian Dagger (Must not be Good).

 

Oops, my bad. Forgot about that part of the dagger.

Also character number 4 should be:
15 Monk
1 Paladin
14 Wizard
It just won't let me edit it for computer reasons or something.

The Helm's boost come's from the filler character.

Drop 2 off wisdom, add them to intelligence. The character already has 73 AC, so a drop of 1 is ok. Which means 2 more intelligence is needed to hit 17. Some options are:

Potion of Aura Enhancement (+1 Int)
Amulet of Intellect (+1 Int)

Intriguing School Cap (+3 Int)

I've seen the amulet for sure. But the cap and potion might be random drops. Should still work though.

[ June 20, 2007, 06:06: Message edited by: DrEm314 ]

 

Hi, 'sme again. Had forgotten my user name and all.. thank god for post history.

Having seen a 72+ AC character action in HOF kinda makes you go whoa.. but really, there's really no point to try to make ALL of your characters such. One tank is all you need for most parts of the game. However, places like the Hook Horror cave and the first wolf den area before Wandering Village are certainly easier when there's two guys to hold the two fronts.

A comment on the rogue(3)/fighter(4)/pally(3)/Illusionist(x) tank. It's easy going and straightforward when using it in a party with another arcane caster - just get the melee level-ups first and enjoy your decent melee guy while the other arcane caster buffs you up. However, it's rather a drag if you're to play duo with a Banite decoy wannabe - getting the melee levels first means no or very little arcane spells for a LONG time, and going Illusionist-heavy in the beginning means you won't even get your second attack per round until level 10+. Doing the whole Horde Fortress with 1 melee swing and 1 crossbow bolt per combat round was rather.. tedious, to say the least. Not tough, mind you, just tedious.