I wanna be a Spy not a thief

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I am new to the D&D world. I have played BG1 and BG2 and started PS:T. I like the role playing and playing good characters. I tried playing some evil parties but it just does not feel right. The evil NPC's are funny but I hate not choosing the good deeds that increases your reputation. When I play a good character, I do not pickpocket or steal things from the chests in houses or stores etc.

So my character being a thief or having a thief in the party bothers me. Aren't thieves supposed to be bad by definition? Yet Imoen is a 'good' thief. And my character can be 'good' and be a thief class. Huh? I guess a thief is supposed to be different from a bandit, but it sure does not sound that way. So I wish they had a classification of 'spy' or 'scout' or something different from a thief. At least for good parties. A spy could have all the same skills as a thief to do their job. ie lock picking, detect traps, hide in shadows, etc. Even back stabbing I can see for a spy. After all, you must stay stealthy.

The big disappointment with the whole idea of the thief class came at the end of BG2-TOB. My beloved sister Imoen, who went through hell (literally) with me to save the world from evil, becomes the head of a thieves network afterwards. NO! Thieves steal from people and sometimes have to kill. How can she do this as a 'good' character????? So a thief character is inherently 'evil' no matter how 'good' they are supposed to be.

That is why I want a spy class instead of a thief.

 

It would depend on how the character percieves good and evil as to what alignment they would be - a lawful good dark elf raised in a drow city and such good have values which seem totally evil to a paladin raised in Baldur's Gate, for example. A good (non-lawful) thief may see nothing bad in stealing from people, but may have other moral leanings which make them classify themselves as 'good'.

Good and evil are totally subjective

 

The tag of 'thief' doesn't have to mean thief. A person with that class can as you say, be a scout, a spy, etcetera.

It's all how you roleplay it. For example, I've played a courier. He was a bard in class, but if he was adressed as a bard, he'd give you a funny look and say "Whatever makes you think I'm a bard? Does this mug of ale look like a harp? Begone man."

 

In the 3rd edition of the D&D rules, they changed the name of "Thief" to "Rogue". In my opinion that made much more sence. But yes a Thief/Rogue have skills that can be used for many different situations, and as such you can count yourself as alot of many things like Scout, bountyhunter, Spy and whatever other kind of title you would like. One of the persons in Planescape-Torment also had problems with this label of "thief".

[ June 13, 2005, 15:17: Message edited by: raptor ]

 

I like the Rogue name change as well -- the character I am designing would technically be a rogue, but he's be a professional diplomat -- the voice of the King when dealing with other political institutions, the fellow who sets up appointments with the king, etc. He wouldn't take any ranks of the stereotypical thieving skills like open lock or disarm device, but rather Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, Knowledge (various), Profession, Speak Language, Perform, Appraise, Intimidate and Ride. With the right feats to go with this, he's a perfect front man for a trade mission, exploratory mission, or envoy.

In one of the expansion books, there's a scout class, which may be of interest to you, Chas. A Bard might also be a fair template for a spy, particularly given his spell selection.

Robin Hood was a thief, but one who worked for good. But I agree with you that I really don't see Imoen leading a vicious thieves guild.

 

What about a ranger, then? Or maybe a monk? Spies can also be wizards. Bards (a natural candidate). Paladins.

 

There's also a Scout kit (or even the Spy kit) from the Complete Thief's Handbook, if you play pen & paper. Even if you don't, you might be able to get someone to design a kit mod for your game, or failing that, learn to do it yourself.

I don't see her leading a vicious Thieves' Guild, either. Personally, I think she remade the Guild in her own image: a nicer, gentler, and more mischievous Thieves' Guild. Can you imagine an army of Imoens loose upon the city of Athkatla? It would be chaos!

 

Oh, by the way, Imoen... didn't she steal in BG2, in the banter dialogue? But I don't really see her as one stealing from anyone else than corrupt merchant-politicians, anyway.

 

"Robin Hood was a thief, but one who worked for good. But I agree with you that I really don't see Imoen leading a vicious thieves guild."

"I don't see her leading a vicious Thieves' Guild, either. Personally, I think she remade the Guild in her own image: a nicer, gentler, and more mischievous Thieves' Guild. Can you imagine an army of Imoens loose upon the city of Athkatla? [laughing out loud] It would be chaos!"

"But I don't really see her as one stealing from anyone else than corrupt merchant-politicians, anyway."


OK. Those ideas help. I can imagine Imoen becoming a 'Robin Hood' and only going after corrupt people. But it is still a stretch for me. Imagining a kindler gentler thieves guild is as hard to swallow as a politicians speech.

 

Okay, so the nicer, gentler thing was just so much filler, but I was entirely serious about the more mischievious part. Personally, I don't think little Imy would countenance any stealing past simple annoyance for the victims (something they can easily spare). The worst it would probably get is if she ordered a theft of a very useful item, to be used for the greater good, like defeating the next Irenicus. After it was used, she might even make the thieves sneak it back into the true owner's house, just to confuse the heck out of them.

Unfortunately, another possibility must also be considered. It may be that Imoen was so damaged by her time as Irenicus' prisoner, that she finally just snapped, and changed alignment to CE or something like that. IMO, though, Imoen is far too strong to just give up her ideals like that. She's just too nice.

 

I had an elven ranger/rogue once. Started his career as a rogue in a human city, known for a fair degree of racism towards elves. Became a ranger (in backstory; he was a character added later in a campaign) when a retaliatory prank played on a candy-maker who was giving laced sweets to elven children backfired. They moved a beehive into his shop, broke it open with a sling stone, and sealed the door. Throw in an allergy to bees on the part of the confectioner, and my guy decided to spend his time going cross-country... any other country.